Comair had a minimum fleet number with Delta and we all know how that turned out.

U have a huge forehead

Dude, you are full of it!

Have you read the contract yourself?

From a law perspective: the contract is so lengthy, so wordy, and filled with so many loopholes, that it virtually allows Delta to do whatever they want. The longer contracts are, the more loopholes. The shorter they are, the less loopholes.

Example, the current contract for Pinnacle to fly CRJ-200's for many years into the future was just broken. The contracts were designed to give Delta control. They hold the cards.

Things are playing out EXACTLY like ComAir.....and now ComAir's CEO, is going to be running the show.

Hmmmmmmmm............

DAL doesnt own building C, they lease it from MAC.

By good guy do you mean a guy who is either at the very bottom of the seniority list or furloughed (as a pilot) yet flies as a Captain whenever he pleases? Happened at Mesa.

Did so under the guise that being the COO entitled him to it.

cheap rates, but everyone at the top of the scale, no?

I will grant you all that nothing is guaranteed in this business, especially as it concerns DL. But you have to consider that while this situation looks alot like Comair's from the outside looking in, there are differences. Comair was bought by a very different management team a long time ago for a very different reason. They were thought to be too valuabe to DL to not be bought. The circumstances with Pinnacle are not nearly the same.

Second, yes its possible DL may want to close this place down, but for what? Why do they absolutely refuse to give their own pilots what they want as far as scope to then secure 7 years of cheap labor (even topped out) to then quickly move to shut it all down? That doesnt make business sense and is counter to DL's own best interests. The only 2 carriers cheaper than Pinnacle are Compass and Gojet. Compass being an all E-jet operator are not likely to start flying CRJs. Its possible they could wind up at Gojet, but if that was their endgame, why didnt they just do it already. Why negotiate a deal for preferrential hiring with us, cash payouts, and furlough benefits including paying for f/os to get their ATPs if they really wanted and could have awarded all these airplanes to Gojet in the first place?

Again Im not claiming to be smarter than DL execs and I have no emotional ties to this place. In fact, I hope to be long gone before the final act of this **** show plays out, but if any of you can answer my questions, Im listening.

They plan to streamline us and sell us off to the highest bidder. His job is to facilitate that. Expect to see temporary management (less than 3 years). IMHO they will fail and ship the 900's off like Comair. Delta cannot succesfully manage a regional airline and they have the track record to prove it. It's just a matter of time. Good luck to us all.

so what? if your top out rate is the same as the other's middle-longevity rates, it doesn't matter. How it it more expensive for a 12 year Pinnacle CA at $88/h more harmful than a 9 year brand X CA at $88/hr who will be climbing the longevity scale to be a $100/hr CA?? What if Pinnacle only had 1 year pay rates of $30/hr and $80/hr for FO and CA? They would be topped out but still cheaper. So you are saying we weren't as expensive as before when we weren't topped out and made alot more, but now that we make alot less but are topped out we cost more just doesn't make sense.

Top of the scale stops at 89 pathetically plus people will be leaving from the top

edit....it's just not worth it, anymore......

No....... it's not. Our fate was decided long ago. What's the point anymore?

Those contracts existed between PNCL and DAL, the bridge agreement is between us Pilots and DAL. If Delta shuts us down in one year, they have to go to court and explain to the judge why they are backing out of the bridge agreement. Exploiting contract loop holes is not just cause, and since Delta management is in control, there are not many factors beyond the control of DAL. Only pilot work action is beyond the control of DAL.

You can't just say there are so many loop holes and not give any examples. The 200's were parked because that's what PNCL management, which is Delta management, decided. The Bridge agreement is a whole other matter.

Assuming that's the case, where are you going to get the money for your lawyers? An assessment?

I wouldn't expect any help from DALPA after PALPA did an end-around and negotiated directly with Delta--without giving Delta pilots the courtesy of sitting at the table.

so much for "meet and confer."

FWIW, Delta made the demands on us directly of what our pay would become, hence the "end around" deal. Furthermore, Moak was at the table. I understand it doesnt sit well with some Delta pilots, but your management was in the driver's seat as far as these negotiations, so thats who our MEC bargained with. Would DALPA have objected had they been asked?

Something to read for some of the folks in here.

"A Delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception".

Exploiting contract loopholes is the way they end the SSP. If the exploit the contract loopholes and end the DCA, the SSP and aircraft guarantee are null and void.

Moak is not DALPA anymore. He is national. The fact that he was at the table makes it even worse that they went around DALPA.

Good point but you won't be able to change purple's decision. He made it before seeing all viewpoints and will argue invalid points till he's purple in the face. ALPA's job is to represent us. The money will come.

All due respect, you make it sound like there was some premeditated collusion with DL management to specifically harm Delta pilots. Do you really think Wychor went into those negotiations, guns blazing, demanding that Richard Anderson "give" him and his pilots this deal, Delta pilots be damned? This really isn't any kind of windfall for us. Why do you think we overwhelmingly voted in such a crappy TA? The alternative was certain death. We felt this choice was the lesser of the two evils.

It is my understanding that when all parties were on the way to DC, DL had already made up their mind to shut this place down. They have specifically said (true or not) that what made us so much more expensive than other DCI carriers was the longevity of our senior pilots. That was their biggest "gripe" that they couldnt live with going forward. With the help of Moak, the deal was crafted to address that "longevity problem" relative to other DCI carriers without kicking everyone out on the street without a job. This was an 11th hour hail mary. There wasnt time to go back and ask for anything else or bring anyone else to the table. Im not Wychor and can't get inside his head, but I doubt very highly that he did anything to intentionally snub DL pilots. Time was of the essence. These are the terms your management demanded of us in order to secure their continued financial support of this company. In exchange, they agreed to throw us a bone to keep us from stagnating at Pinnacle and becoming "too expensive".

We signed a 7 year concessionary agreement based on the bridge agreement and the SSP. Delta suddenly canceling it and shutting down Pinnacle because they want to, is defrauding the Pinnacle pilots. Delta would not have signed the Bridge agreement if they didn't plan to keep Pinnacle around for 7 years, they're not that stupid. If that's the case we can sue for punitive damages and every Pinnacle pilot can retire.

Most of this thread is based on the stupid premise that they hired Gumm to shutdown Comair, when John Bendoraitis, if he hadn't found a better job at Frontier, would have been the shutdown CEO of Comair.

So you should be hoping thats happens then, right?

Read post #32 in this thread.

Maybe you should have read the agreement better before you voted on it. It is right there in the agreement. There is no fraud going on. If I can find everyone else can.

Rule #1 in CEO/Management training. Never sign a contract you can't break. Ever since deregulation airline management have been getting smarter with their lawyers on how to write contracts that sound good, but in the end only benefits them.

Then again, this contract was either a bullet in the face or jump off a cliff...I guess we are all waiting to see if we survive the fall. Only time will tell.

The difference is that Coke, et al. are not negotiating to erode the Delta pilots' exclusive bargaining position with Delta Air Lines.

But you knew that.

You've read it and you don't understand it. Section 1. c. i., has to do with section 1 of your CBA. How you should read the bridge agreement is this way:
Delta will operate 81 CRJ 900's at Pinnacle or "NewCo". Unless
i. Delta pilots recapture scope by eliminating the affiliate language in Section 1 of the DALPA CBA.
ii. Pinnacle pilots throw out ALPA
ii. 7 years and 6 months is up.

d. A pilot wild cat strike or another act of God.

Here's what I've decided:
1) The only pilot group Delta Air Lines should be negotiating with is Delta pilots.
2) Pinnacle's MEC purposely and maliciously cut DALPA out of the negotiations. If Pinnacle pilots said, "hey, Delta, we'd like DALPA to be here," no way that request would have been denied.
3) If you can't understand why this is a bad precedent going forward, I have some oceanfront property to sell you.
4) Your actions will have adverse consequences on your career.
and
5) The pilots who do get hired at Delta (if any do) will have to overcome the black cloud over their heads as a result of their choices.

Do we know for sure DALPA wasn't asked? But said "No that's fine. We don't need to be there."?

Shady?.. yes
but:
2) your own union (headed by one of your pilots) chose to cut you out of the negotiations as well.
5) doubt it.

What are you so worried about?

Think u drank too much of ur own stuff :rolleyes:

Yes. They were completely unaware of the negotiations. I've verified that with the MEC.

The main concern is that if DAL management is comfortable doing this, they may not have a problem doing the same when it comes to negotiating the shared flying with Virgin Atlantic. What precedent does it set?

Our mec chair and your mec chair talked about it so they knew. I verified that as well.

He forgot to tell the rest of the MEC, then.

I heard he told his dog.

So, what has DALPA done to teach Delta - whoa, better not try that again?

Please remember to write up every Pinnacle pilot you ever fly with. That way your CP can see the problem is really you.