Originally Posted by DashTrash (Post 1422357)

The 170/175 was designed so that 500 hour, third world trained pilots don't kill themselves.

Originally Posted by Airway (Post 1422382)

FLYING magazine is a popular magazine that isn't just read by private pilots and kiddies with aspirations. It has a huge readership. This is precisely why your article was so damaging to the piloting profession, MY profession, which is already demeaned enough. We have enough misinformation spread over our profession, and then we have a "fellow aviator" decided to spread it some more. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say "well the autopilot just does everything anyways, doesn't it?" What you forgot is that after so many years, we have become so proficient that everyday operations are easy. Just like anything else. But you remember how easy it is to screw up when you go into recurrent. After hundreds of hand surgeries, I'm sure it's easy too. I once had a doctor explain that arthroscopic knee surgery is so easy it's like playing a video game! He'd done thousands of them. It became easy. And that's why he was worth what he charged. But telling me what he did kind of hurt the image of his skills. It was bad PR.

I spend a lot of time explaining to people that "autopilot" is a terrible word to describe the system. That it is NOT a pilot, it is solely a flight control manipulator that takes direct input from a PILOT, that I can command the damned thing to do whatever I want it to do, and it's sole reason for existence is to ease workload because we have so many other tasks to accomplish on any given flight, especially during the departure and arrival phases. I had one guy (a physician) at a friend's dinner party tell me he thought we just press an autopilot button and then sit back and let it do it's thing.

The biggest problem with aviation is that so many pilots have such poor PR skills and are so socially inept that they don't understand other people. Sometimes we don't understand the consequences of what we say. When you write an article about flying for an airline, you don't just have an opportunity to improve our image and fix some misconceptions, you have a duty to your peers not to do what you did. It's also a mark of maturity.

Telling the world through one of the most popular aviation magazines on the planet that our jobs can be condensed to being bored and autopilot and autothrottles is a perfect example of the social ineptitude that plagues this profession. Furthermore, it's not even TRUE! It's so far removed from the truth, that it's an insult to pilots all over the world. This kind of damage can't be easily fixed. And this sentiment is not only shared by a lot of people on this thread, I guarantee you that the majority of airline pilots who read this article will be thinking the same thing: "Oh GREAT".

You write it off as "self-effacement" in your reply...but remember that you were describing an entire profession to the world. You were an un-chosen and (obviously) unwitting representative of all of us in that article. You didn't just efface yourself. You effaced all of us.

Thanks, guy.

Originally Posted by Airway (Post 1422382)

Telling the world through one of the most popular aviation magazines on the planet that our jobs can be condensed to being bored and autopilot and autothrottles is a perfect example of the social ineptitude that plagues this profession.

Originally Posted by JungleBus (Post 1422533)

Had another longish response typed out but not really worth the effort. If I'm going to write in a national publication, I'm going to get jumped over no matter what I write. Either I'm cheapening the profession by making cruise flight on a good-weather day sound easy, or I'm an arrogant prick with a hero complex by making it sound harder than it is. Either way, there are a lot of egos in this business, and I'm inevitably going to bruise some fragile ones by merely supposing myself an able candidate to write about life as a regional pilot in a major magazine.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1422556)

Jungle, I checked out your blog. Wasn't too bad! :)

I would MUCH rather have read your blog entry (last 30 seconds) about the Colgan crash....

Originally Posted by Airway (Post 1422382)

FLYING magazine is a popular magazine that isn't just read by private pilots and kiddies with aspirations. It has a huge readership. This is precisely why your article was so damaging to the piloting profession, MY profession, which is already demeaned enough. We have enough misinformation spread over our profession, and then we have a "fellow aviator" decided to spread it some more. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say "well the autopilot just does everything anyways, doesn't it?" What you forgot is that after so many years, we have become so proficient that everyday operations are easy. Just like anything else. But you remember how easy it is to screw up when you go into recurrent. After hundreds of hand surgeries, I'm sure it's easy too. I once had a doctor explain that arthroscopic knee surgery is so easy it's like playing a video game! He'd done thousands of them. It became easy. And that's why he was worth what he charged. But telling me what he did kind of hurt the image of his skills. It was bad PR.

I spend a lot of time explaining to people that "autopilot" is a terrible word to describe the system. That it is NOT a pilot, it is solely a flight control manipulator that takes direct input from a PILOT, that I can command the damned thing to do whatever I want it to do, and it's sole reason for existence is to ease workload because we have so many other tasks to accomplish on any given flight, especially during the departure and arrival phases. I had one guy (a physician) at a friend's dinner party tell me he thought we just press an autopilot button and then sit back and let it do it's thing.

The biggest problem with aviation is that so many pilots have such poor PR skills and are so socially inept that they don't understand other people. Sometimes we don't understand the consequences of what we say. When you write an article about flying for an airline, you don't just have an opportunity to improve our image and fix some misconceptions, you have a duty to your peers not to do what you did. It's also a mark of maturity.

Telling the world through one of the most popular aviation magazines on the planet that our jobs can be condensed to being bored and autopilot and autothrottles is a perfect example of the social ineptitude that plagues this profession. Furthermore, it's not even TRUE! It's so far removed from the truth, that it's an insult to pilots all over the world. This kind of damage can't be easily fixed. And this sentiment is not only shared by a lot of people on this thread, I guarantee you that the majority of airline pilots who read this article will be thinking the same thing: "Oh GREAT".

You write it off as "self-effacement" in your reply...but remember that you were describing an entire profession to the world. You were an un-chosen and (obviously) unwitting representative of all of us in that article. You didn't just efface yourself. You effaced all of us.

Thanks, guy.

Originally Posted by JungleBus (Post 1422575)

Thanks for the kudos. :)

I personally enjoy reading Les' column, although many of his takes on the industry are different than mine, as you might expect between a baby-boomer 777 check airman and a gen-Y regional guy. It's an interesting window into a world rather different than mine. I don't recall his specific article about CJC3407, so I won't debate that. But going a bit off-topic, I did a whole series of posts on the Colgan crash, not just the one you referenced, that you might find interesting. I think they're some of the best writing on the blog. They were all done in May 2009, in the middle of the NTSB hearings. Here's a link to May's postings, start at the bottom. The CJC3407 posts are:

Canary in the Coal Mine
Thirty Seconds of Silence
Thirty Seconds of Confusion
Thirty Minutes of Distraction
Thirty Years of Outsourcing Safety

Originally Posted by JungleBus (Post 1422543)

Wanna know how I know you didn't read the whole article? That or you're being disingenuous for cheap points. Thanks, guy. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by The Great Sky King Les Abend

"Encouraged by the fact that some of my college classmates with similar flight experience had been hired, I was confident of my chances. Unfortunately, I didn't interview with confidence. Instead, I interviewed like a 1,100-hour, 21-year-old kid. I wasn't hired. It was the best lesson of my career. And it may have been the best decision for the airline industry. Why?

Despite a four-year degree from a university with a highly regarded professional pilot training program, despite the fact that I possessed the appropriate certificates and ratings and despite the fact that I met Braniff's minimum requirements, a tiny voice inside my head said I really wasn't ready."

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1422606)

In other words, he totally blew the interview.

Originally Posted by Airway (Post 1422382)

FLYING magazine is a popular magazine that isn't just read by private pilots and kiddies with aspirations. It has a huge readership. This is precisely why your article was so damaging to the piloting profession, MY profession, which is already demeaned enough. We have enough misinformation spread over our profession, and then we have a "fellow aviator" decided to spread it some more. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say "well the autopilot just does everything anyways, doesn't it?" What you forgot is that after so many years, we have become so proficient that everyday operations are easy. Just like anything else. But you remember how easy it is to screw up when you go into recurrent. After hundreds of hand surgeries, I'm sure it's easy too. I once had a doctor explain that arthroscopic knee surgery is so easy it's like playing a video game! He'd done thousands of them. It became easy. And that's why he was worth what he charged. But telling me what he did kind of hurt the image of his skills. It was bad PR.

I spend a lot of time explaining to people that "autopilot" is a terrible word to describe the system. That it is NOT a pilot, it is solely a flight control manipulator that takes direct input from a PILOT, that I can command the damned thing to do whatever I want it to do, and it's sole reason for existence is to ease workload because we have so many other tasks to accomplish on any given flight, especially during the departure and arrival phases. I had one guy (a physician) at a friend's dinner party tell me he thought we just press an autopilot button and then sit back and let it do it's thing.

The biggest problem with aviation is that so many pilots have such poor PR skills and are so socially inept that they don't understand other people. Sometimes we don't understand the consequences of what we say. When you write an article about flying for an airline, you don't just have an opportunity to improve our image and fix some misconceptions, you have a duty to your peers not to do what you did. It's also a mark of maturity.

Telling the world through one of the most popular aviation magazines on the planet that our jobs can be condensed to being bored and autopilot and autothrottles is a perfect example of the social ineptitude that plagues this profession. Furthermore, it's not even TRUE! It's so far removed from the truth, that it's an insult to pilots all over the world. This kind of damage can't be easily fixed. And this sentiment is not only shared by a lot of people on this thread, I guarantee you that the majority of airline pilots who read this article will be thinking the same thing: "Oh GREAT".

You write it off as "self-effacement" in your reply...but remember that you were describing an entire profession to the world. You were an un-chosen and (obviously) unwitting representative of all of us in that article. You didn't just efface yourself. You effaced all of us.

Thanks, guy.

Originally Posted by Airway (Post 1422382)

FLYING magazine is a popular magazine that isn't just read by private pilots and kiddies with aspirations. It has a huge readership. This is precisely why your article was so damaging to the piloting profession, MY profession, which is already demeaned enough. We have enough misinformation spread over our profession, and then we have a "fellow aviator" decided to spread it some more. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say "well the autopilot just does everything anyways, doesn't it?" What you forgot is that after so many years, we have become so proficient that everyday operations are easy. Just like anything else. But you remember how easy it is to screw up when you go into recurrent. After hundreds of hand surgeries, I'm sure it's easy too. I once had a doctor explain that arthroscopic knee surgery is so easy it's like playing a video game! He'd done thousands of them. It became easy. And that's why he was worth what he charged. But telling me what he did kind of hurt the image of his skills. It was bad PR.

I spend a lot of time explaining to people that "autopilot" is a terrible word to describe the system. That it is NOT a pilot, it is solely a flight control manipulator that takes direct input from a PILOT, that I can command the damned thing to do whatever I want it to do, and it's sole reason for existence is to ease workload because we have so many other tasks to accomplish on any given flight, especially during the departure and arrival phases. I had one guy (a physician) at a friend's dinner party tell me he thought we just press an autopilot button and then sit back and let it do it's thing.

The biggest problem with aviation is that so many pilots have such poor PR skills and are so socially inept that they don't understand other people. Sometimes we don't understand the consequences of what we say. When you write an article about flying for an airline, you don't just have an opportunity to improve our image and fix some misconceptions, you have a duty to your peers not to do what you did. It's also a mark of maturity.

Telling the world through one of the most popular aviation magazines on the planet that our jobs can be condensed to being bored and autopilot and autothrottles is a perfect example of the social ineptitude that plagues this profession. Furthermore, it's not even TRUE! It's so far removed from the truth, that it's an insult to pilots all over the world. This kind of damage can't be easily fixed. And this sentiment is not only shared by a lot of people on this thread, I guarantee you that the majority of airline pilots who read this article will be thinking the same thing: "Oh GREAT".

You write it off as "self-effacement" in your reply...but remember that you were describing an entire profession to the world. You were an un-chosen and (obviously) unwitting representative of all of us in that article. You didn't just efface yourself. You effaced all of us.

Thanks, guy.

Originally Posted by embraer (Post 1422620)

This article set us all back collectively by at least 20 years. Thanks "Sam".

Originally Posted by Airway (Post 1422604)

I didn't read your article. My response was based on the OP's quote about the autopilot...and then I went on a tangent, all of which wasn't supposed to really be directed at you but to all of us. Really there is no need to ever characterize an autopilot as a "better" alternative to our own flying skills. The CRJ AFCS intercepts a localizer like a drunk airmail pilot.

So really, when I saw the quote about the autopilot, it set me off because it was in a popular public magazine article written by a pilot.

Anyways, to make it fair, I'm gonna buy and read the entire article.

I apologize for how my post came off. My apology is probably too little too late. You seem like you have good intentions. And you had the balls to come on here and take heat from A-Holes like me.

Best of luck with your future articles.

Originally Posted by JungleBus (Post 1422665)

GMAFB :rolleyes:. Talk about overblown reaction.

I'll ask you what I asked airways: have you actually read the entire article, or are you going off of what airways (who did not read the article) or shyguy (who did, but focused on one sentence in a 2500 word piece) said?

I believe we've met, and I believe you have my phone number & email. If you've actually read the entire article and really believe I've set us back by 20 years, you owe me a far more personal tongue-lashing (and possibly an ass-kicking) than an anonymous post on the APC regional forums..."embraer."

I'll be waiting.

Edit: actually I'm thinking of someone else, glad you're not him. But there's always PM.

Originally Posted by embraer (Post 1422685)

Yes, I did read the entire article.

The greatest tragedy in this is that most of what you wrote was good. However, you sunk the entire ship with the autopilot bit.

I'm a very laid back person and never get worked up over anything. This issue happens to be the one that gets me angry every time. It is my kryptonite.

You know (or should know) that the general public thinks all we do up there is press a "take-off" and "land" button while taking naps and talking about the FA's ass. Comments such as yours not only throws gasoline on the fire, it dumps an entire fuel drum on it.

As Airways mentioned, the readers of these publications vary but for the most part they are not airline pilots. They are going to take whatever you (an airline pilot) says to heart. When you put yourself out there you have a responsibility to our profession not to demean all of us in one swoop.

If we are not pilots who fly the aircraft then what are we? It may seem like a trivial issue to you...and it is clear to everyone that it is. But you are missing the big picture. We are pilots who fly aircraft. That is not something any monkey out there can do. If you think so then you have no business being in this profession.

With that said, you can't represent us to the general non-flying public as simply system monitors who can't fly the plane any better than the autopilot. I don't take issue with any other aspect of your article and couldn't care less if/when you will flow, if you have been furloughed, or any of that.

If you want to try your hand at stand-up comedy and self-deprecating humor then sign up for an open mic night at your local comedy club. An article such as yours in a publication as widely read as FLYING isn't the place for it. Especially if your idea of self-deprecating humor is reducing all airline pilots down to over-paid, under-worked people who don't really fly the plane.

Originally Posted by embraer (Post 1422685)

Yes, I did read the entire article.

The greatest tragedy in this is that most of what you wrote was good. However, you sunk the entire ship with the autopilot bit.

I'm a very laid back person and never get worked up over anything. This issue happens to be the one that gets me angry every time. It is my kryptonite.

Originally Posted by JungleBus (Post 1422704)

Now, all that said. I do regret my choice of words in that one sentence. Not because of anything you or ShyGuy have said, but because some real-life friends who I respect have called me out on it. A far better wording would have been "The autopilot and autothrottles are unusually smooth and precise, relieving the pilots' workload in busy moments and freeing them to perform the most important function in any cockpit, the one task that no avionics package yet devised can do for them: think."

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1422619)

Not even that great mustache saved him that day.

Originally Posted by embraer (Post 1422685)

Yes, I did read the entire article.

The greatest tragedy in this is that most of what you wrote was good. However, you sunk the entire ship with the autopilot bit.

I'm a very laid back person and never get worked up over anything. This issue happens to be the one that gets me angry every time. It is my kryptonite.

You know (or should know) that the general public thinks all we do up there is press a "take-off" and "land" button while taking naps and talking about the FA's ass. Comments such as yours not only throws gasoline on the fire, it dumps an entire fuel drum on it.

As Airways mentioned, the readers of these publications vary but for the most part they are not airline pilots. They are going to take whatever you (an airline pilot) says to heart. When you put yourself out there you have a responsibility to our profession not to demean all of us in one swoop.

If we are not pilots who fly the aircraft then what are we? It may seem like a trivial issue to you...and it is clear to everyone that it is. But you are missing the big picture. We are pilots who fly aircraft. That is not something any monkey out there can do. If you think so then you have no business being in this profession.

With that said, you can't represent us to the general non-flying public as simply system monitors who can't fly the plane any better than the autopilot. I don't take issue with any other aspect of your article and couldn't care less if/when you will flow, if you have been furloughed, or any of that.

If you want to try your hand at stand-up comedy and self-deprecating humor then sign up for an open mic night at your local comedy club. An article such as yours in a publication as widely read as FLYING isn't the place for it. Especially if your idea of self-deprecating humor is reducing all airline pilots down to over-paid, under-worked people who don't really fly the plane.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1422883)

I read the article and wondered where I could find a job in a modern jet eating a crew meal on a CONUS leg.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1422883)

I read the article and wondered where I could find a job in a modern jet eating a crew meal on a CONUS leg.

Originally Posted by paxhauler85 (Post 1422913)

Good one, bud. Typical Delta - complain to someone who can do nothing about something that they changed/allowed themselves.

Want to trade? You can have my modern jet and crew meal, I'd prefer to have your contract and job security.

Do you think we actually cruise around grinning about that kind of stuff? Most of us spend the entire flight talking and thinking about our next job and how quickly we can get it.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1422986)

Yeah that was surprising, you get full crew meals at Compass? Training for mainline I tell ya! :P

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1422986)

Yeah that was surprising, you get full crew meals at Compass? Training for mainline I tell ya! :P

Originally Posted by MrMustache (Post 1423100)

Don't you hipsters get Sushi or something? Lots of regionals get crew meals on certain flights. For being as educated as you claim, you sure don't know a whole lot.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1423106)

What regionals? Maybe I worked at a crappier regional, under NWA we got nothing except drinks, and once under Delta, we got Biscoff cookies/pretzels/peanuts. That was a crew meal for me.

Originally Posted by String682 (Post 1422818)

All these pokes at Les and this is the only mustache joke? Les should win the award for best 80's era mustache, pushing Tom Selleck back to 2nd place.

Originally Posted by MrMustache (Post 1423100)

Don't you hipsters get Sushi or something? Lots of regionals get crew meals on certain flights. For being as educated as you claim, you sure don't know a whole lot.

Originally Posted by Airway (Post 1423128)

My understanding is that Pinnacle used to get meals catered for their longer Mexico flights (ATL-MTY, DTW-MTY). When DL shifted that flying back to us, they were accidentally catering for us too until our MGMT found out about it. Now it's just the leftover First Class Meals.

Originally Posted by Airway (Post 1423128)

My understanding is that Pinnacle used to get meals catered for their longer Mexico flights (ATL-MTY, DTW-MTY). When DL shifted that flying back to us, they were accidentally catering for us too until our MGMT found out about it. Now it's just the leftover First Class Meals.