Problem is, like 99.12% of companies pay low starting wages, so it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's hard to refuse regional airlines' pay because many of us just want to fly for a living and we know that if we refuse the offer handed to us, there are 100 other glassy-eyed kids waiting to take that spot.

I flew with several.

In terms of having enough money to rent an apartment for adequate sleep, I think they would.

Absolutely yes, at least in my thinking, and I suspect that market forces pressured 3407 check airmen and FAA personnel to lower their standards in service of money and larger markets. Money kills in this case if markets are mostly about money, and I leave it to you to decide if the latter is the case.

That's right and it is why we need boundaries. I think of it as an ILS needle going full scale- when it gets too close to the edge someone needs to either intervene or call missed approach, because the PF is not getting the job done. This would be role of regulation according to my analogy. Nothing happens as long as the needle stays in the middle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chazbird http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...s/viewpost.gif
ALPA Minimum: 45K for first year FO on probation. 60k second year. 1st Year captain 80k. After that ALPA can negotiate within each carrier.


Didn't read my whole post, maybe you were laughing too hard. I despise the current ALPA. I didn't always, and I'm one of those that "came before you". The last 15-18 years is enough to prove how useless they've become. I merely wrote "ALPA minimum" as some sort of pay example. If a trade union (they hate the term union, nee association) can't establish a basic livable minimum for its members its a plain failure. If ALPA can't do a base minimum then there needs to be a reformed or new union that can. I sort of doubt a single airline or an a membership cabal of airlines would be the slightest bit interested. Besides, most of them have ALPA!

And who knows what they may have done with any extra money.
Bought a new car? Gone on a vacation?
Who is too say after the fact? It is just all speculation.

They have those regulations and they are often either abused or ignored - sometimes by the motivation for money! It seems to all tie in doesn't it? The laws right now set out standards for the rest, fitness, fatigue, duty times, etc.... They have been known to be inadequate for some time and it obviously takes a LONG time to turn that ship heading right for the breakwaters! But that is where the change are needed so that the corporates aren't able to abuse the systems in place in the race for money! It is like a lot of other things dealing with gov't - - - if you don't like what is happening, get rid of the ones standing in the way and let someone else have a shot at getting it right.

No worries dude. I dig your disdain for ALPA.

Well if the question is will corporations voluntarily do the right thing for safety and fair wages, I surely would not bet on it. First and foremost they act for the best interest of the shareholders in the short run, mainly looking to boost stock prices. If and when airplanes start crashing due to a lax safety they run for the hills and file bankruptcy. While not all corporations are poor citizens, enough are which is why the industry needs some regulation. Again, it is like an ILS that has run full stop- nothing happens as long as the needle stays near the center.

The industry has already decided the better investment is better planes not better pilots. Thats why they put gadgets in the planes that even the most distracted pilots once who don't crack the book ever to get the plane from point a to b. There are still cases of pilot error and that will just continue until they get rid of the pilots altogether. Getting better pilots I don't think enters into the equation. I fly with few people who can even plan a decent anymore without the FMS.

Cubdriver,

Is your argument that business wants to kill their customers? Not a great long-term plan, I'd say. And the facts of history argue strongly that it's not true. Airline travel is safer than virtually any other means of transportation, far safer today than in the regulated era. OEMs, airlines and the regulators have made huge strides in adopting technology that engineers out hazards--EGPWS, weather radars, autoland, glass cockpits.

You state that money forced the FAA to compromise standards in Colgan's case--how? And if they did compromise safety, why won't your desired regulatory body be similarily compromised. Everyone thinks the regulators are unethical, but then turnaround and want more regulators.

I'd think Colgan and its crews were ethically challenged, poor leadership and non-existent culture of adherence to professional conduct that led to the accident. Some things can't be bought with money. More money won't deliver them, either.
GF

Good points GF, I am not opposing you. It's a balancing act as opposed to one way or the other. It is not as simple as villains and victors, no one ever wants to crash airplanes- yet it happens. Colgan shifted the pendulum to the left as far as regulation is concerned, but it will eventually swing back by the natural course of time. Sometimes a referee is a hindrance, and others when one is required lest the game be impossible. It depends on the times and the particulars. I do think it is clear that early level regional airline salaries are too low even for the best interests of the markets- whether that needs to be fixed by industry or by government is not for me to say.

Still makes me laugh every time I see this. People actually believe we are still bound by this...lmao :rolleyes:

Elaborate. How are we not?

When the law becomes the despot and disallows the 'free' market to work, we are no longer bound by its tenants. Its time to hoist the black flag and break the 'law'

I agree with this 100% You are already seeing evidence of this in the bonuses being paid at regionals now. Pay will be next but it will take a very long time. If you have been at a regional for the past 10 years, not by choice but because of the lack of movement then you have the right to ***** a little. If you haven't, then suck it up and get a second job just like the rest of us have had to do for years. IT IS A REGIONAL! You are not supposed to have any money. They are giving you a ticket to the big show! If you don't like it, vote with your feet and GTFO! Nothing worse than having to live in a crash pad that smells like AS*, making no money, working every weekend, and a stagnated market. You finally get to fly the plane, the part we all love, and some jackwagon wants to ***** all day about the company and how little they are paying them. Give me a break! Do you think this is a new development? You knew or should have known the rules when you signed up. Stop ruining my fun with your bullcrap while at work. Now if you only complain on these boards and not on the flight deck, or in the crew room, or at the crash pad, then please accept my apology because I feel that venting on the boards is therapeutic. The rest of the places mentioned are just like a hemorrhoid to me. Some of you just suck with all of your whining!

This has been tried hundreds of times since the beginning of airlines and has NEVER worked. Every new airline since day one tries to do this but It ALWAYS evolves into a corrupt good old boy system in which the company abuses more often than not. Remember pilots and Harvard educated MBA's can be very good at using any weakness in any system to their advantage. I have yet to be at an airline where the pilots haven't found a back door into the rostering system. Even though the company corrects the software fault as it becomes aware, there is always someone who finds another backdoor. Humans are remarkable creatures at exploiting weaknesses and using them to their advantage and until you change that, your system is nothing but a utopian dream.

one needs to factor useless or valuable time on a seniority list..... meaning... low 'regional' pay would be easier to swallow if one were gaining career seniority with longevity protection...

Massive exaggeration won't help your credability. ;)


Just a few HUNDREDS of years off.

Most of these people HAVE been stuck at regionals year after year, my personal friends have been stuck around 8-10 years or so. The system doesn't work like it used to, what you are referring to, because regionals fly mainline routes and are far numerous than they use to be. We got CRJs flying across the country from SAT to SFO. You think that they are "giving you a ticket to the big show", but it doesn't work like that anymore. They ARE the show and with the competition out there from the numerous regional pilots and mergers, there's little chance to do anything else.

And most of these people did not know any better, they thought they'd move along in 2 years or so. There weren't all these websites with pilot pay all over the place, and even when there are, it's hard to know exactly where to go and what to check when you are not connected with the industry and pilots. I notice lots of pilots like to play a double-standard, not informing young people about the realities, but then blaming them when they start complaining about the realities. It's like "you should 'do the research'", but we are going to "hide it from you" and then make you sound like an idiot when you start complaining.

The part in bold was the first point I had tried to make. There is no minimum for pilots and I feel that is a failure of the regulatory system that taxpayers spend so much to keep in place.

In italics, I agree completely. Yes, it is a failure of the regulatory system, unions, and companies all together that this is where we are at. In many ways I blame the RLA and NMB for being laws so union and company friendly that they leave the employee out in the rain, starving.

The sentence underlined is two part. The general traveling public is still somewhat ignorant to what pilot wages are. Even all the education attempted after colgan fell on a largely deaf public. So maybe there's no getting people to learn. And of all the congressional regulation that came into effect recently, nothing directly regulates a pilots wage. The "1500 hour rule" was supposed to use market forces to drive up wages. In some ways it has, and in some ways (ref. Great Lakes) its still business as usual. Even as pilots leave in mass with nobody coming up the pipeline. The second underlined sentence, yes, regulation has always been reactive rather than proactive.

Somebody referenced that regional pilots must just need second jobs. That is what I had to do given my paycheck and situation. But does the flying public really want pilots flying them who are putting in 16 hour duty days and working a second job as much as possible just to survive? But again, this is an education issue.

Thanks USM. I know what year it was passed and amended. Not the point. It's old and ties our hands. It's part of the reason we are where we are.

It's kind of funny listening to all the young ones complaining about starting pilot pay. I remember those days.

One of the reasons is, it's an entry level job. Most entry level jobs start with low pay. This will never change.

No one put a gun to your head and made you take the job you now have.

If you want to make serious money and you are still young. Go work in the Maritime Industry. Starting pay in the Maritime industry is 60K and tops out at 400K.

Just my two cents

701EV

Mergers is another reason. Delta once had 10,500 while NWA had 6,500. The combined airline now has 11,500. Consolidation will continue to help prevent any pilot shortages. Therefore, supply and demand and the market wil continue to keep entry level pilot wages very low.

Entry level position? 6 years at a regional making less than $40k a year flying people around is only "an entry level position" in this country because we let it get away from us.

You took the job. Who is part of the problem? :eek:

Not an entry level job. Where does this idea actually come from? Google is paying engineering interns $6500 a month. Don't think being a pilot requires (usually a four year degree) plus considerable training, skills and technical knowledge, and, also think its an entry level job (regional)?

As far as the public knowing or actually caring much about regional or other pilot pay, oh, they are surprised - but only for a bit. Ever hear: "all men (people) are bore with other people's lives'? It isn't up to the public to get pilots decent money.

I did the regionals in the 80's, unemployed now, but I swear I'll not go back like they are (it wasn't so hot then but it was far better than now). Maybe I'll be unemployed (pilot wise) forever but I did that, its not worth doing twice, and as it is now, probably not even once. Its a Ponzi scheme, largely built by the mainline carriers all the regional pilots so desperately want to work for. Genius. Ask Marx. Karl or Groucho.

6 years at a regional making 40k means you are a FO because RJ Captains aren't moving on. So you can't move up.

Bringing up the captains that won't leave in the presence of 5 year plus FO's is like kicking a hornets nest sometimes.

Aggravating as heck to hear them explain why they aren't going to leave. F word.

If I got paid more I wouldn't commute.

NOVA is quite expensive.....even more so than Los Angeles.

Or Bloch hands them the left seat for free!!

That would be a good start; since every FA on my widebody crew makes more than regional pilots. I'm not saying our FA's don't deserve it. I'm saying something is wrong with an industry that pays a pilot less than ANY flight attendant anywhere.

That's the argument you guys should make to arbitrators. You also need to form your own regional union with a single industry wide seniority list and a single contract for all regionals. Without that you will continue to be whipsawed against each other over and over.

Lots of majors are finally hiring. Get out of the regionals while you can.

Most professions don't send you back to those "entry level" wages if you change employers.

Maritime pays well because not enough people want those jobs.
Sound familiar?
Our problem is our unions and the RLA

Unions drive DOWN wages and working conditions? I agree with the RLA part.

Only because they are no longer true labor unions; they've become big business themselves.

I'm on 3rd year pay at a regional, and I work the schedule to have around 15 days off a month, but yet I will gross between $55,000-$60,000 this year. Credit will be about 1200-1300, with block about 800-900.

Would you say the average 3 year regional airline first officer earns $55,000 to $60,000 per year?

Is that pay average for 3rd yr FO at your airline?

It's the exact same reason that wages are low, because people let them get that way. Take the eagle guys that are uncovering the corrupt union practices, THEY are actually doing something about it. Unions aren't inherently bad, but if you just keep your mouth shut and let them go, bad things can happen, just like keeping your mouth shut and letting wages slide. The union becomes a big business in it all for itself because that's what people let it do. Everyone needs a good swift kick in the ___ every once and a while.

I didn't get a chance to finish posting, but I believe what I'm making should be a lower end. Have FO's top out around $65k-$70k. That is a living wage that will allow someone to purchase a newer/new reliable vehicle, purchase somewhere to live, pay off student loans, have a family, etc. Start off at $35k-$40k, and after 2-3 years, be at the $65-$70 mark.

A pilot will earn what they want to earn though. I don't commute, I bid uncommutable high credit trips, and I pick up high credit trips to other people don't want, like 7.5 hr day lines with a 630 duty in and a 730 duty out. If the $55-$60k average, I would say no. I would say it's more like $40k.

$40k base pay per year. For spending time away from family. Then additional for flying around in a pressurized beer can.

i'm on third year pay at a regional, i will gross about 34k