Specumalation or have you actually heard this from more than just a sim instructor?

Heard a couple of rumors and part speculation on my part. We're hiring like crazy, and there is talk of changes to the training program that sounds very much like Compass.

Think of it this way. Why would Hulas continue to pay for all the duplication involved with two seperate certificates when has has two pilot groups represented by the same union with similiar pay scales and contracts? Everybody knows the 145s are going away eventually as UAL has made it clear the larger RJs are the future. The reason for all these certificates (mainline scope on 50 seaters) is gone.

Gonna be an interesting next couple of months.

True, but look at RAH...

Rumor at RAH is that CHQ and Shuttle will likely be merged. 170s were put on CHQ certificate initially but APA fined CHQ something like 6 million for this and the mulitple certificate kabuki dance was born. Now that the AA/Continental 50 seat scope has been gutted, the business justification for these multiple certificates are gone, along with the horrendous expense of running multiple SOCs, maintenance, training programs, etc.

Im not sure exactly how compass's training is but what are you talking about? AQP? Whats so special about that?

Merge the two?? More like put any new 170s at Compass and close down TSA offering those people 'great jobs at CPZ on first year pay!' That sounds more like the Trans States we all know and love!

Nope changes to initial training.....

Wouldn't put it past them but if that happened training expenses would go through the roof as you would be talking about initial training vs some type of transition training. Plus TSA contract addresses this by guaranteeing any TSA pilot displaced due to a TSA shutdown 50% of their longevity at a sister carrier (Gojet or Compass) so this really wouldn't save them that much in the end when training costs are considered.

Wouldn't training costs be very similar to retrain TSA on E175, if they are replacing all the E145s, versus moving them over to CPZ and training them there? Plus then you don't have the hassle and expense with adding the E175 to the TSA certificate. And like you said, they get all of those guys at half longevity. NOT saying I condone this!! But as we all know TSH is pretty ruthless.

If you merge certificates you are talking about a transition course (3 or 4 weeks) vs full blown initial training (3 months). Plus the other issue with this is everyone is having a hard time filling newhire classes.

Ok so if this even happens how would any of it be accomplished by the time these planes start coming?

Who knows. That depends on the FAA and how well the company manges things if it happens. But UAL is gonna have to make an announcement on this soon as the aircraft start arriving in January.

All of the pilots at my old airline had to do an initial training every time they switched to an airframe they hadn't flown before. The only thing they got out of was 1 week of indoc. Pretty sure you can not 'transition' to an airframe with a different type rating that you have not flown before.

Heard a couple of rumors and part speculation on my part. We're hiring like crazy, and there is talk of changes to the training program that sounds very much like Compass.

Think of it this way. Why would Hulas continue to pay for all the duplication involved with two seperate certificates when has has two pilot groups represented by the same union with similiar pay scales and contracts? Everybody knows the 145s are going away eventually as UAL has made it clear the larger RJs are the future. The reason for all these certificates (mainline scope on 50 seaters) is gone.

Gonna be an interesting next couple of months.

I agree with this... a lot of positions are being merged on the TSH level and Compass people are actually heading up the efforts. Crew Planning, Crew Records, Technical Publications, etc.... so this sounds plausible. They are also beefing up dispatch, scheduling, and maintenance positions within the SOC at this time as well. Completely overstaffed for our current operations in MSP.

Indoc at TSA is 2 weeks, some places its 3. But either way you're talking about an extra expense. Also if you shut TSA down, it will be gradual, and you are going to have expenses with that in terms of severance and bonuses to get people to stay till the lights go out. By the time you look at all that, it probably is not very cost effective.

Most, of not all, of those 145s are flown on a pro rate agreement rather than a capacity purchase agreement. That flying is extremely cheap for United since TSA and United share the risks. It's so cheap, United will most likely keep those planes around for a while. I see no reason why United would give TSA 175s in exhange for parking 145s.

The thing that people are forgetting is that many other airlines believe they are getting these airplanes and are being told they have a good shot at it. Why in the world would an airlines that does not have this type add it first and then merge with a sister company who already operates them?

Forget about the 175s for a second. You have two sister companies which have comparable cost in terms of crews and mechanics and the pilots are both represented by the same union. However you are paying for a support infrastructure for two certificates when you could move to one certificate and eliminate half of those jobs. Unless you have worked in the SOC or on the support side, it is hard to understand the amount of support positions required for each certificate. The reductions in management positions alone would result in a huge cost savings. So the answer to your question is simply cost. The reason you have multiple certificates was mainly due to Continental and American scope that would not allow large (over 50 seat) RJs on a certificate. Now that those scope clauses are no more you will see consolidation of certificates across the board to save money. The only reason I don't think Gojet will be in the mix is their pilot costs are the lowest in the industry, and I don't think the savings in support positions would be enough to justify the increase in pilot cost with a consolidation.

Its spreadsheet economics. If I can spend a little on the consolidation, and get rid of a bunch of people that I don't need to pay for, then it will happen. Its all about the bottom line at the end.

The 175s would not be the primary driver in a consolidation of certificates. The savings by eliminating positions would be the primary reason.

I'm not saying I have any "inside" information, but when you look at the history of this industry, companies have always moved to consolidate and eliminate excess staffing (cost) when possible.

According to United we have both. Not sure how many of each. Mainlines have moved to get rid of Pro Rate Flying (with the exception of EAS routes) because it is more profitable for them to go with CPAs. That is why 95% of UAL's agreements are CPAs.

Not sure but I think UAL pays for all our gas. That is a big reason to get rid of the 145s. Fuel isn't cheap any more.

But you could be right, UAL may decide to keep them for a while. Will be interesting to see what happens over the next couple of months.

Like I stated earlier, it's already happening. Many functions that were once performed by Compass and TSH are now being handled by one entity, TSH. Some Compass people are moving up to holdings to handle the same positions, and some are not. They are definitely working to reduce costs as much as possible. Crew Records, Technical Publications, Crew Planning, etc are all being centralized between the two airlines. GoJet remains its own entity as far as they are concerned at this point.

How about this, United keeps the 175's for themselves, and staffs/operates them with mainline pilots offering all regional guys a chance to move up to the big time in short order :P

Like!

It'll never happen though, unfortunately.

I know it's already been said here, but it seems the FAA sequester has eliminated any chance California Pacific will get E175's for UAL. Just found this article...

FAA: Can't Process New CA Airline Application Due to Sequester - Really? :: Fox&Hounds

Also heard yesterday that the sequester is affecting the issuance of certificates for new training programs. Anyone else heard of this? Apparently, the FAA does not have the manpower to oversee the development of new training programs at any airlines currently. If this is true, then any carriers not currently operating the E175 would be eliminated.

Haha FAIL :D

Which is why OO put in for and got it approved at the end of 2012.

I'm 100% sure OO has done their homework...but at some point, don't they have to do proving runs? Has their E175 training program already been certified? Or did they just add the E175 type to their operating cert?

Right now finishing up a training syllabus, they've already selected check airmen for the program and will be sending them to Flight Safety after the busy summer schedule. 1st 175 is due in May-June2014.

I can find nothing in our OpSpecs or on the FAA website that would indicate our 175 program has been approved and added to our certificate. I'm assuming, though, that these sources are actually current.

That said, the sequester isn't going to stop this at SkyWest, even if the company has to pay the inspectors' salaries themselves. Too much is on the line at this point.

I believe before that can happen the training syllabus and MX procedures have to be approved which they're working on now and have been since January. I said we put in for and was approved to work for this certificate (application wise) I didn't say it was all done and we can start flying them tomorrow.
I'm sorry I wasn't clearer.

Yes, but OO bought their own E175's... the 30 UAL ordered are still floating around somewhere and it's yet to be announced who will be operating them. Most likely it will be a current E175 operator but who knows.

According to XJT COO, they are working on a 175 program as well.

Well that makes sense now, SkyWest INC, just ordered another 100 Ejets, with options for another 100. Thats a total of up to 360 unassigned on a order log if they all come out. It appears that the the future of the fleet replacement is now visible.