Life in the Real World
 

There have been posts lately about "poor Comair", SkyWest growing "at Comair's expense" and similar statements. Is this not how things work in the real world, people? You win some, you lose some and you keep fighting and move on. Why should anyone expect that Comair will keep all the flying they have and Skywest shouldn't compete for additional business? It should be the goal of any business to grow. If Comair can't compete, well then that's just too bad for them. If Skywest can compete and gain additional business, why shouldn't they? Heck, even MESA (perish the thought) should grow if they can compete and win new business. We live in a free market economy and this is how it works.

Where am I going wrong with my thinking on this?

I'll bite on this one although I'm sure it's going to come back to haunt me. Short Version? Pilot Salaries. With a fairly young pilot group and starting pay of $19 an hour, plus no separate 70 seat payscale...SKW can pay afford to do the flying for less because they pay their pilots less. That tends to get people a lil' up in arms when they fight so hard to get a raise and then it gets undercut and the flying distributed to other agencies. BUT I don't work for Comair or SKW, so take that response for what it's worth - barely knowledgable random post on the internet (I think that ranks somewhere between tabloid articles and anything that came out of Dan Rather's mouth).

Pilot salaries are only a part of the equation.

The only thing I have to say about the 'real world' thing is just wait until it is your job which is pulled out from underneath you only to be replaced by younger, cocky, less experienced pilots. We have all been young and cocky and inexperienced and that is the nature of the world. But you will likely feel a bit more sympathetic and understanding when you are replaced by a younger version of yourself in a few years.

Just wait until CHQ starts making a run for the CRJ flying...

Just got off the phone with a friend that was talking to a CHQ crew up in Montreal. They are ferrying back the "newest" CRJ for paint in Arkansas (it's an ex-IDE bird).

You want inexperience and cocky pilots? This crew was it.

Total time in type for the CA: 12 hours.
Total time in type for the CA rated FO: 4 hours.
Haven't even done IOE and they're ferrying aircraft in bad weather...

Scary.

Well, I may be new in the business, but I'm old and not cocky. Just trying to figure out why pilots think they should be insulated from free market forces. I've been replaced and it sucks. But again, it's how things work in the real world.

You obviously don't work for ACA/FlyI. Or Air Wisconsin. Or Expressjet. Or Comair. Or ASA. Or PSA/PDT. Or TSA. Or any other regional pilot group that has lost or is faced with losing flying to somebody willing to do it for less.

To get to the gist of your post, Comair is hamstrung in "competiting" because they are wholly-owned. In theory a WO should be preferred to a contract carrier because of operational control issues, but WOs are now viewed as a liability rather than an asset. Another thing hurting DAL & in turn Comair is the ridiculous amount of aircraft debt DAL has, mostly in the form of RJs. My understanding is DAL unloaded ASA's debt onto Skywest, but they still have the debt for Comair's aircraft. And lets not doubt for one second there are people in Delta management "making Comair pay" for the 2001 pilot strike that cost them BILLIONS of dollars.

Comair raised the figurative bar for every regional, and now they are getting the rug pulled out from under them...and as long as pilots are content making less than Comair's 2001 rates and work rules (so long as the upgrades continue...), there will continue to be a merry-go-round of contract carriers at the regional level.

Skywest is taking advantage of SJS guys that will jump at the chance to fly larger equiptment for less pay, and I used to respect SKYWEST, what was I thinking................................

It matters not who I work for, though I'll say this- I work for someone who is at risk and anxiously awaiting the results of the RFP. But again, the issue is the free market, competition, and winning and losing business.

Well I did a search and found you work for Mesa, based in MCO. I liked the "Saving Pilot Ryan" video the MEC put together, and I hope you guys kick ass on the contract next year, I really do. If Mesa loses flying in the Delta RFP, it'll not be a consequence of high cost, it'll be a consequence of operational reliability (or lack thereof). That definately ain't the fault of the crews...

I'll never be happy for anybody being put out of work, but a few would find sweet justice in seeing Mesa lose some flying after taking so much from other carriers.

If you vote to accept continued low wages & poor work rules in order for Mesa to continue growing, then that will firmly make you part of the problem and not part of the solution...and that is directly tied to "free market economics".

"To get to the gist of your post, Comair is hamstrung in "competiting" because they are wholly-owned. In theory a WO should be preferred to a contract carrier because of operational control issues, but WOs are now viewed as a liability rather than an asset. Another thing hurting DAL & in turn Comair is the ridiculous amount of aircraft debt DAL has, mostly in the form of RJs. My understanding is DAL unloaded ASA's debt onto Skywest, but they still have the debt for Comair's aircraft. And lets not doubt for one second there are people in Delta management "making Comair pay" for the 2001 pilot strike that cost them BILLIONS of dollars."

Then why doesnt Delta spin Comair back out? I think several other companies have done this with their regional flying in the past, and it has served them well.

BTW, I think the state of wages at the "regional" level of flying *does* reflect market forces.

Two points:

One, there is overcapacity in the regional market, so the bidding for business is competitive between many companies. Although it would suck for those pilots, it would do the regional industry overall good if some companies closed shop rather than continue to push their workforce and rules to scrape by.

Second, in the case of the newest RFP's, the companies are given the planes to fly, so the cost to operate is directly related to wages/benefits, as that is really the only variable that a company can control (assuming operational capability is similar).

As a pilot group, we would all like to see wages improve to a livable level, and the original COMAIR contract was a step in the right direction, but it is plainly obvious that they lost the business from Delta because the pilot's wouldn't take the pay cut (to a non-negotiable "magic number" that I'm sure was handed down by Delta -- see the news from yesterday)... and this hurts the group as a whole.

At some point...ALPA needs to step up and lay out a plan for the "standard" regional work package - if the group pulls together, across all the regionals, something may improve. But - when you've got CFI's with SJS who are just happy to be there, normally due to a lack of knowledge on their part..... I think to be affective, ALPA needs to be aggressive in recruiting - go to the schoolhouses and intervene with these guys before they jump and be an active part of the transition process.

Rant off, and making room on the soapbox for someone else....
Spongebob

Amen to that brother

Define irony.

You haven't been in this business long enough to talk. Most SKW pilots just want to live in the west. A few new-hires under 2000 hours have SJS, but the majority are from other airlines and have shiny-money syndrome.

You're right on with this. Where's the master plan ALPA?

There is a fundamental problem here...it is not "free market" forces in action, it is our longevity pay scale in action. The longevity scale is basically an archaic mechanism to get pilots to work for peanuts today in exchange for a payoff down the road.

Unfortunately management had figured out that they don't have to actually make good on the the promise...they take your work up front and when the time comes to pony up, they either reduce your payscale in Ch.11 (maninline) or liquidate your jobs and sell them off to the youngest (lowest) bidder in the case of regioanls. The low bidder will always be the company that has the largest number of super-junior pilots.

Comair has simply reached the natural termination point in the life cycle of a regional pilot group. They are older, wiser, and have families and bills so they require more compensation...the longevity scale would have provided that in the past, put today it only provides the means of their demise.

But don't worry, you will get your turn in the barrel when you are an eight year captain with 2-3 little kids...

Actually you work for mesa, right? I think mesa is about to learn all about market forces as they relate not to labor cost, but to product quality. :eek: Good luck with that...

Excellent thoughts, especially the last paragraph. I'm grateful to have the job, and it's probably best I not comment further, except perhaps to say I think I'm bit concerned based on observations I've made. That being said, no company is without its problems.

Pardon my ignorance, but how so?

You're kidding right? Yes we make 19 an hour but with our credits you'll easily make near 30K your first 12 months (including per diem). Will you make that at XJT, NO. A fiend of mine just finshed his first year at XJT and he didn't make near that much. Yes second year pay is more than the Mighty Bro but not more than our RJ. Plus during your second year on the Mighty Bro you can upgrade to CA which is significantly more than your 2nd year pay.

Plus, jump at the chance to fly larger equipment? Yes they jump once they get 1000/100 and pass up a XJT, Eagle, Mesa, Piedmont, Colgan and many other interviews at 600/100. If you wait till your at a 1000TT your not jumping at anything. You're jumping at 500-800TT. And don't say you don't get hired at XJT at 600/100, I have 7 friends that all got hire at XJT under 800 and most just over 600.

I second that!!!!!

You weren't, so you made an asinine post. How many instructors with 600TT have jumped at the chance to fly JETS!! at XJet? Here's a whole list of them right here:


http://www2.atpflightschool.com/AirlinePlacements/

I don't blame you though. It's hard to be mad at a monkey for flinging poo. It's just what they do! :)

This coming from an XJT pilot? The same airline that hires 500 hour wonders like mad and takes dozens from Gulfstream and other Pilot Puppy mills?

Skywest has about 30-35% fail rate in their interviews and to even get an interview you have to have 1000 hours total no exceptions. So don't tell me skywest is an SJS airlines when 90% of the newhire classes are filled with ex part 121 airline pilots and when XJT hires anyone with a pulse.

True, but ATP has this so called "Alliance" with SKW that is nothing but smoke and mirrors. ATP pilots can "GET" and interview with SKW at 850/100 but even if they get hired they can't start ground school until they have 1000/100. SKW sticks to their guns, that why they are SKW and not "Them other guys."

http://www.atpflightschool.com/airli..._alliance.html

I relieved to here that the program works this way. That's kind of what I suspected when I heard about it...SKW is having trouble (like everyone) getting enough pilots, so this allows them to sign up someone with potential who might otherwise have jumped for a lesser airline prior to getting 1000 TT.

Grist
 

Man you guys all are just grist for the mill. Why not ask the real question, "Why are we doing this"?

The regional market is going to crash and everyone will get reshuffled. It is already beginning to tip. The big issue is to get in, upgrade, get out. The problem is that there are not enough good places to go on to.


600 hour new hires at the regionals and no growth at the majors. The writing is on the wall. Half of you will most likely be out of work in 2 years.


SkyHigh

Hopefully by then I'll have enough seniority to be above the furlough list.

I'm 42, done a lot of different stuff and haven't been homeless yet.

42?
 

Man you are 42 and you are new to the airline industry? You should know better. By now if you haven't found a better place in the world than as a Mesa FO then homelessness might be in your future.


SkyHigh

Well, can't say I share your sense of doom and gloom. I didn't start flying until I was almost 40, so I'm afraid I can't join you in your hopes of despair for me.

But have a nice day, anyway. :)

Airlines are running 85+% full, yes there isn't room for new airlines but there sure won't be much of a reduction. Airline travel is still the safest and by far the most efficient form of travel and that won't change. Unless you figure out how to teleport. Your negative outlook is unfounded. What will happen is the weak will get brought out by the strong and then will become streamlined. Ex. SKW & ASA, AWA & US Airways and it won’t stop here.

As far as “out on our asses,” 30-35% of commercial airline pilots must retire by 2011, that's way more vacancies than I think you understand. With less than 130K total airline pilots in the industry (includes Fractionals, 135, Cargo, 121 Major & 121 Regional) that 35-40K retirees. Plus with pilot training at an all time low & less military pilots than ever, the "written is on the wall!" Even if there is a reduction of flying, you can’t reduce that much because airlines have less than 15% of their seats available and with what you are saying we’ll have to have a 35+% reduction.

What you say would be true but only if two things happened. 1) No pilots retired. 2) A huge reduction in fling.

I'll tell you where you don't want to be, you don't want to get hire after mid 2010. The US pilot group will be so young that there won't be any movement for you. And those pilots will be the ones furloughed. As for as the rest of us, get to your strong airline of choice as fast as you can, because the movement is about to blast off. The faster you get there the further up the totem pole you'll climb and that’s job safety.

To all pilots, DON'T LISEN TO SKYHIGH, his opinion is unfounded!!!!! Do your research, unlike Skyhigh!

These are just facts.

I can't argue with the original posters ideas of free market competition, but the fact that it's Comair that's taking it in the shorts still bothers me. We all owe Comair a little respect for what their pilot group did in 2001. We often gripe about certain companies and pilot groups that have caused a lowering of salaries and QOL, but lest we forget the groups who have had a positive impact. It's sad to see what is happening at Comair and I wish nothing but the best for the pilot group over there. Good luck fellas and if life is fair you'll emerge from this stronger than ever.

Common Sense and Logic
 

I can excuse a 20 year old to some degree, but people your age should have a better grip on things. It isn't about despair but the use of common sense and logic.


SkyHigh

I hope you too have a nice day. ;)

Airline jobs
 

Yes look at the facts, but not through rose colored glasses. In the future there will be more airline jobs and they will be much easier to get but it will be because no one will want them anymore.

Yes, Open your eyes. The wind has been blowing for sometime now.


SkyHigh

Rose colored glasses? My dad flew for Braniff for 25+ years until they went under. My uncle was with Pan Am until they went under. Both still love aviation and both still have very position outlooks. My dad ended with career with AA and my uncle is a hiring CA for SWA. I understand this industry very well, I've been apart of it my entire life. I see the way this industry goes up and down and we are headed for a Hugh up after an all-time down.

You’re still unfounded! Why would nobody want a job that's fun and pays well? No not what a Dr. or lawyer makes but enough to have a good life with. You'll make more than 75% of the careers out there. And you didn't have to go to school for 10 years. There is no other job for me and I gladly devote my life to aviation, because I LOVE IT. I'd, as well as an overwhelming majority of pilots, will gladly continue the flight.

Show me where your information comes from. Prove to me that what you say it true. YOU CAN'T, PERIOD. If you hate this industry so much then get the HELL out and increase the job security for the one behind you.

BEAT IT!!! We don't want you here!!!! The only wind that is blowing is the BS your spreading!!!

Pay well
 

Well it doesn't pay well when compared to other professions that require the same level of training, education and sacrifice. In the future pay is going to get worse as well. Look into it. Search some threads on the "time value of money, compensation" and a few others. I could and should write a book. You are selling yourself lies.

You are your own worst enemies. Go and love it. In time that is all you will have.

I'll tell you what. Read all of my posts and then come back and tell me that my points are unfounded. I have spent the last two years proving my point.


SkyHigh

Certianty
 

Jetjock,

It is a certainty that you will not enjoy an even close resemblance to what your father and uncle enjoyed. Those days are gone forever. It must be easy to be able to pull the wool over your eyes given examples from thirty years ago. Wake up, you are handicapped to reality.

I am not saying that it is impossible to become an airline pilot. Hell, they are practically giving the jobs away as it is. My point is that most of the benefits and compensations once given are gone now and will continue to reduce with time. If you are satisfied with that then by all means enjoy your life. Others here have an interest in self preservation.


Though I thoroughly enjoy this conversation sadly I must leave now. I will check back later though and will gladly reply to any response.

SkyHigh

Hang in there, SkyHigh is an idiot who obviously has no clue about love and dedication to and of ones industry. At 42 you're set up well, you'll stay at the regionals and make 80K+ with 15 days off and enjoying your personal and professional life. And, if you want to fly for a major you’ll make more money and fly remarkable a/c. It's obvious that SkyHigh is disgruntle and only wants to spread his displeasure and misery.

Don't worry Stanrhintx, you'll never be homeless and in 18+ years you'll be able to look back laugh and people like SkyHigh.

SkyHigh, give up and beat it! Your not want here!!!

30 year ago, wool over my eyes, and giving jobs away. Did you not read were I said my uncle is currently a hiring CA at SWA and my father retired 2 years ago with over 35 years of airline experience. GET REAL, it's obvious that the industry is totally different.

Doesn't every industry give the job away to people who have the proper education and experience? Who are you to determine who is qualified? Are you the FAA? Are you the Airline? Obviously not, so if they choose to hire qualified individuals with the proper education and experience (that they determine), then how can you say they are giving the job away. Do high school graduates with out any experience or training get the job? Do the airlines pay for you CPL? Do the airlines take anyone with a checkered back ground? NO!!!

Lawyers go right into practicing law after they pass the appropriate exams and doctors do the same. If you complete their training and pass their exams then you WILL find employment somewhere. Just like you should!

Explain to me why a pilot who has passed the appropriate ratings and exams, completed a 121/135 ground school and are PROVEN able by the FAA and AIRLINE; doesn't deserve to learn from a well qualified CA for 1000+ hours slamming gear until he is prove qualified by both the FAA and AIRLINE to become a CA. Yes some pilots are better than others but you can't half ass your way through an ATP Type ride. Just like ALL OTHER JOBS, there are the weak who find a way to perform at the right times.

GET REAL! Your narrow minded!!!

I'll give you a lesson on basic economics, seeing you sleped thought that class in college. Or, did you even go to college. It's called "Supply and Demand," the fundamental bases for all economics. As the supply of pilots dwindles and the demand for pilots increases, seeing that the retirees vastly out number the potential pilots and the amount of flying stays close to the same. The cost for a pilot labor group will increase. It's easy, leverage! If you did your research you would now that 30-35% of the nation’s pilot labor group is nearing the forced retirement age of 60. But you can't see this because you're too caught up reading your own unfounded postings.

Read your postings, I would if they were full of factual information. But there not, it's your worthless opinion. Write your book, "My Worthless, Unfounded Opinion" by SkyHigh, and see how fast it makes it onto the worst sellers list.

I'd love to keep arguing with you but until you can show sold facts instead of your opinion that’s spread throughout your postings; I refuse play with you anymore.

Beyond Help
 

I guess you will have to learn the hard way. As a second opinion why not read Barry Schiffs letter.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/sh...t=barry+schiff

In any case pay will not go up. The pilot shortage legend is a lie. There are enough unemployed pilots now to cover any shortage that might materialize. The majors haven't hired in any great amount in many years. There is a huge back up of unemployed and under employed pilots to last last forever. In addition there is a never ending supply of eager goof balls with a parent stupid enough to co-sign a loan and the job isn't that difficult anymore.

You have been reading to many of APOA and Flying Magazines marketing fantasies. My data is backed by facts. Most anyone else here will agree that the pilot shortage is nonsense. There will be an increase in retirements but the impacts on the industry are minimal.


SkyHigh