Best response to Kit Darby ever!
 

Flyboy
on May 15, 2013 - 7:19am

Low-Paid Internship?
You state, "True, regional airline first officer (FO) pay is not now a living wage. Why not approach this period as a low-paid apprenticeship?"

First of all, low-paid internships are usually usually short in duration, and during a period of time where the individual is not already trained in the area of work. Being a regional pilot lasts a decade or more now, and the pilots are already fully trained pilots when they arrive. Today, a pilot can expect to remain a First Officer at a regional airline for 5 to 10 years. During this time, they make less money per month than the cost of simply repaying their flight loans and student loans. Since they cannot declare bankruptcy on those loans, they have to either have their credit ratings destroyed, or they have to continue education until they become Captains. In order to keep their loans in deferment through education, they may add hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional student loans over the time it take to become a Captain and have the income to actually afford their loans.

You state, "Find a way to survive the low-paying regional FO years remembering that even regional captains, after five years, start at $70,000 per year."

The problem with this is that the pilot is unlikely to actually be a regional CA at fifth year, they are instead likely to still be a reserve FO that doesn't even break guarantee at that point. This means a gross income of about $2,700 per month. That is less than $2,000 in take-home pay. With that, they have to somehow pay for food at airports and hotels for as much as 20 days out of the month, being away from home as much as all but 11 days each month. Anyone who has traveled knows that food at airports and hotels doesn't come cheap, especially not remotely healthy food.

You state, "There is still an incentive to get to the major carriers. My 35-year career value at the majors places the average career—pay, benefits and retirement—at nearly $11 million in 2013 dollars. Average FO starting pay is $50,000, increasing to $95,000 after five years. A starting captain after 10 years averages $125,000, and typical captains make $155,000. Top annual captain pay averages $200,000 and peaks at $280,000."

In order to become an airline pilot, starting in August, one must be 23 years of age. This means that the absolute maximum amount of time that a career can last (with an age 65 mandatory retirement) is 42 years. If we use even the maximum of 42 years, let us look at the numbers. Right now, it takes about 7-10 years to become a captain at a regional airline. Let's use 7 years. In that 7 years, take-home pay will be about $24,000 per year. So... $168,000 in the first 7 years. Then, it takes about another 7-10 years as a regional airline captain to be hired to a major airline. Again, using only 7 years as a regional CA, with an average take home pay of about $48,000 per year another $336,000 will be made. The average most junior CA at the major airlines is 15 years, so the next 15 years at a major airline, for this relatively lucky pilot would be as a major airline FO. The average hourly wage you will make is $92 per hour over that time period, with an average of 68 hours of guarantee per month. This comes out to about $4,750 per month in take-home pay on average per month. This comes out to $855,000 over that 15 years. The pilot is now 29 years into their maximum 42-year career. They can now be a CA at the major airline for the next 13 years, if they are lucky enough to remain healthy and never be furloughed. They could make as much as $255 per hour, but only if they are the most senior on the biggest plane during this time. As a fresh CA, they can make as little as $114 per hour. If we say that they will progress linearly up the aircraft scale, we can average those two out for the average pay per hour that they can expect, which is $184.50 per hour. Again at 68 hours per month, this is about $12,546 per month in take-home pay. This is also an average that equates to 25.5 years into their career, if everything went perfectly for them. This means that over their last 13 years, they could make $1,957,176 more in take-home pay. This means a total of $3,316,176 in take-home pay over their 42-year career. Even put as gross income, that is only $4,365,000. Subtract out about $250,000+interest (so $500,000) in flight training loans, student loans, and credit card debt to get through the years as a regional FO, and the gross income over 42 years is really only $3,865,000. That is over $9 million less than you estimated over only 35 years. It is also an average of only $92,000 per year over the 42-year career. This again assumes that the pilot is never furloughed (unlikely to be that lucky) and that they upgrade more quickly than the current averages.

Finally, you state, "Average retirement is fully company paid at about 12% of annual compensation, and peaks at 16% (United Airlines). Plus, it is yours the moment it is paid and cannot be lost like in the past."

The truth of the matter is that the retirement compensation are only 401K matches, and average around 2%-5%. The 16% is no longer available to pilots that are hired now. That money is not the pilot's, until they retire or loan against their 401K. Over 42 years, it adds up, but we are talking only about $77,300 to $193,250 in total company addition to retirement. That is an average of $150 to $400 per month. It is not insubstantial, but it is not it is not huge, either.
Ultimately, it can be a fun job, but it really only comes out well financially if one is really lucky. Many pilots get furloughed, and have to start back at the bottom of the pay-scales. This would mean doubling the first have of the pay-scale, instead of the top half, lending to an average annual income of around $60,000 to $70,000. This is about par (or lower) for the amount of pay that can be expected in return for the education costs invested that are found in other professional jobs. Despite that, the first 7-10 years are paid at annual wages that are lower than many near minimum wage jobs, something found in no other professional industry, period. Some may have internships for up to a year, but not for 5, 10, or even 20 years. You make some good points, but your numbers are overly optimistic, and not at all reasonably attainable.



Kit's response later in the thread I found I kid you not!!!:

The "Study"

This survey is a single data point with no previous reference so we do not know if the "trend" is up or down? Flying without references will produce vertigo every time. Asking young pilots who have never had the job about the job is of limited value.

Another great response
 

Career
The entire string of comments has brought many memories flooding back - to where I began and where I have now ended a 38-year military and commercial avitaion and flight safety career.
The comments about the self-serving Mr Darby are spot on - the long mentioned pilot shortage will not occur UNTIL the pipeline is no longer full with major airline wannabe's. In other words, the airlines and ALPA/CALPA, USAPA, SWAPA and all the pilot unions take care of themselves. Think that is not so? How about going from 60 to age 65? Think that alleviated the shortage that had been predicted for this decade? Think again! At last check, I believe the overall number of student pilot apps in the US was down about 40%.
It is no longer perceived as a career because of all the conditions that have already been listed in previous emails. On a trip into SEA one day, I had a young female XCM who was very happy she was being furloughed as she could go do something else now - she had checked off this box in her overall working career as being done. She was leaving the industry. Unfortunately, this typifies the thought that this is no longer a career but merely a short stepping stone to something new and different down the road.
I have two sons who wanted almost desperately to follow in my footsteps. Luckily, they saw my time away from family, from soccer and footbale and all sorts of events, the fatigue once home, the constant packing and travelling and my strong suggestions that they do something that will ALWAYS be needed (such as an orthopedic surgeon, physical therapist or an engineer) be followed as career paths.
Kit, you have milked this cow for as long as I have been flying - in fact I used your service prior to being hired by the NWA in 1986. It might be time for you to stop leading these young folks down the path that is NOT what you and I had when we were much younger! Of course, I'm sure it will be very hard for you to give up a cash cow and stop misleading the young pilots - try telling them how it really is! Stats can and often are made to fit the solution being presented - as you clearly have done on here!
If you continue, Kit, you are doing them a strong disservice!
Was it a good career? In my case, I was very lucky and it was great...only had a couple of strikes to survive, some furloughs that did not reach me, so my career was unscathed...but I am one of the few whose career is unscathed - remember that!
Would I do it again?
In this environment with chain smoking mental midgets strip searching me at TSA, mid-level manager 24-year old whiz kids who challenge a captain's authoirty because they think they know operations better, needing to justify why I need more fuel for a given flight, having drunk and disorderly passengers who are just butt heads, flying aircraft with MEL items that should have been fixed a week earlier and the onus is on the crew to nurse it around the system, not to mention the routine last minute line-of-sight scheduling that is so pervasive...shoould I keep going to help some of you make a different decision?
I love to fly...always have and will...but not the way it is in this day and age...not worth it anymore! I believe the statistical average age of death for an airline pilot is around 62...think about that and consider your longevity! Do not think Mr Darby bothered to mention that part in his trying to gain new clients!

i'm a three year fo at republic still making 1600 a month take home, current upgrade time 7 years. time to strike

What about me and the many others like me who did actual unpaid internships just so we could get a regional job? Or how about the fact that a regional airline pilot is not an entry level professional job..but one that comes after years of professional work experience just to meet ATP minimums?

You knew what you were getting into when you came here. You didn't listen to anyone who told you not to come here, so deal with your 1600/month.

Ouch! I guess the real question is how low do you value yourself to be ok with the whole thing? You clearly have little value for what you do. As a unified pilot that hopes to achieve a standard self worth amongst the majority of pilots, thank you for lowering the bar:rolleyes:.

And I too thank you RAH for lowering the bar. I hope you guys come through when they come knocking on your door and don't pant like a dog seeing a bone when they say we have 60 new airplanes for you. New car fresh guys!

This the same half-witted crap that is vomited up any time someone has a legitimate complaint about the industry -- and it's complete and total bs.

Did you read the CBA of the company you interviewed with before you got hired? I'm betting not. No one foresees anything in this industry. No pilot can predict upgrade times or forecast hiring plans years in advance.

Yes, you have a vague idea of what you are getting into when you sign on, but no one knows what's behind the curtain until you're actually on the stage.

So please, do us all a favor. Retire that "you knew what you were getting into" BS immediately.

Ever buy a car?

A house?

Get a credit card?

Hire someone for a GFE?

You signed on the dotted line when you showed up. You knew the pay and work rules sucked if you did your homework.

I'm kinda tired of reading the whole "I didn't do my research therefore RAH/TSA/MESA is a horrible company" thing. Not picking you out personally just sayin'

+1...........

Commuter Airlines, pardon me! Regional Airlines have never paid well since the beginning of their existence. Most people get second jobs or quit!

The Teamsters have made a strong effort to educate prospective RAH pilots as to the current pay and working conditions, especially in comparison to other regionals like Express Jet and Skywest.

Applicants ignore this information because they're enamored with the idea of flying an E170. So when they complain about their take-home pay, there's not a lot of sympathy.

http://danisdailydose.files.wordpres...pson.jpg?w=500

Mmmmm... Jungle jet...

And then the work rules changed....

They very rarely change for the better so....

Please tell us what your career path has been. We need to hear what you have gone through and yet maintained this accept it or get out life.

When I got hired at XJ I knew the pay, work rules and benefits. Since I was hired all three have gotten worse. What do you say to that oh wise one?

Probably a trust fund baby/ income subsidy case. Not saying there's anything wrong with taking advantage of breaks in life, but to suggest the profession is solvent while sitting in that position is rather disingenuous. Just call it a hobby and be done with the whole discussion.

There once was a company named Comair, who struck in 2001. Even though they went tits up, we can all hold our heads up high and are proud to say we were once there and tried to make things better. 12 years later no contract has come close to matching what we had.

That is both sad and astonishing considering the cost of everything has gone up by leaps and bounds yet regional pilots are making less than a decade ago.

My first year I made little. But still had 100% deadhead. 100% cancellation. A commuter policy which I used on occasion. Block or better, 12 days off min on reserve. A and life was generally good.

2nd year I made in the $35K range with a good schedule and the same work rules. Things were getting better.

3rd and 4th year I was making in the low $40K range cherry picking 2 day trips with 14-16 days off..

Then came RAH's entry into the Delta mix. All of a sudden it was we need pay freezes, pay cuts, ooooh look at that shiny E170! Wouldn't you like to fly that like RAH? We tried to say no....

For those that were still chasing high school girls around back then, learn from those contract mistakes. Chasing those dreamy upgrades by accepting substandard contracts may work out in the end for some. But the vast majority will have to work under the crappy work rules for many years. Not to mention future pilots that will make peanuts for many years thereafter.

The decisions of pilot groups a decade ago still have detrimental affects on the pilot groups of today. And nowadays you won't benefit from places like JB or SWA scooping up loads of freshly minted 1000pic captains like back around 2006.

You want better? You ever hear of flying the contract, or 2 engine taxi's in an RJ. It's ok to make sure that every Pass overhead light works. Or the emer. Exit sign functions properly..hint hint...

Best response to Kit Darby? Negative. It was factually inaccurate and horribly pessimistic. 24k take home average over 7 years for FOs? False. 48k average take home for Captains over 7-10 years?!?:eek: False.

Kit skews way positive, responder skews way negative. Somebody with some common sense meet in the middle and put factual information out there!

Actually the responder's career earnings figure is probably close to the mark. Darby's is WAY too high, to the point of not even reasonable but hilarious.

Best response to Kit Darby ever!
 

As long as we have pilots who are willing to work for free, things will never change. We had pilots willing to pay for their own initial training back in the 1990's. Not only Comair, but a small US Airways Express carrier, CCAIR stood up to their respective management. What happened was everyone ran scared and took deep concessions after seeing this 200 pilot airline sacrificing themselves.
We are our own worst enemies and will continue to be until things change.
I remember one executive say "we can get 900's on the property and offer direct left seat entry for $475 a week and there still won't be a shortage of willing applicants." (Slightly edited)

Yep, false indeed.

2 furloughs from Uncle Hulas University and a displacement.

Not trying to sound like a douche and I definitely do my fair share of complaining but nobody ever got duped into doing this job. If you want to fight to make it a better career I'm right there with you but playing the "I didn't know, whoa is me...it's a trap!" card doesn't make sense.

Yes, first (and at some carriers second, third, and fourth) year pay sucks...but you KNEW this when you signed up. If you didn't do your research and want to play the victim someone should show you the door.

Name me one professional career where pay is decreasing. Just one other then ours. Your the problem and always have been.

Pay decreases only when pilots vote for decreases. In my case Comair took a freeze then a cut, I left. Best move I ever made career wise BTW.

It's the only professional career where newbies are willing to work for those wages. And the only career where people ( nerds) get excited because a regional jet has engines under its wing, and they get to fly it!

Ever thought about becoming a teacher?

There's your example.

Now if you'd re-read what I posted up there you'd see that I was merely stating my frustration at the "ZOMG I got duped" attitude I've been seeing.

Nobody was duped, you knew what this industry was if you did your homework, if not, you don't deserve to be here.

Want to make things better? GREAT! Get out there and help your union to represent you!

All he said was that everybody knows that pay can decrease AND life can seem kind of unfair at times. That's all. He says he knew what he was getting into...how is he the problem and not people like you who knew but expected things to magically change as soon as you hit the runway? And BTW, it's you'RE not youR.

FAPA put out a cool magazine with shiny pictures of jets. What a bargain! :D:D

I'm not sure sure why some folks seem to be upset at Saluki. Must be over my head. :confused:

XJT Pilot is just a mad guy/gal in general.

Not so sure if that's true, just flew with a guy that couldn't stop telling me about what a great job his wife had as a teacher... Great pay, benefits, etc. Some areas must take better care of teachers than others?.

I've not replied in years. I've been here at my airline for 7 years as an fo and have over 5000 hours in my plane on that seat alone, yet i'm still considered not experienced enough nor deserving enough for an upgrade by some. When certain people post on here saying that they signed onto ' XYZ ' airline and their dealing with not upgrading for 2-3 years it makes me cringe and I only take some solace in the fact that they indeed are children and their thought process is flawed. Many of us have cashed in and spent longer than you have total time in vacation or sick time, yet you feel the nerve to spout on a forum that you deserve and are entitled to much more. I understand their position, I just wish they would speak and act and dress and carry themselves as such because lately i'm seeing a class of pilot that leaves me wishing I were at another career.

To add.
Not being paid while your in training.
Having to share a hotel room while in training.
Required uniform is paid by the employee.
Being at work and not getting paid

I'm sure many can add to this list but this "professional" career is a joke
I'm 7 years in at Pinnacle and I take home between 2000 and 2200$ a month. I took almost a 10$ an hour pay cut because 80% of my fellow pilots think that's all we're worth.
Sad sad state this profession has become.

Best response to Kit Darby ever!
 

Until EVERYONE takes a stand, it'll never improve

and we resort to fake names and forum boards to voice our frustration like little kids.

either suck it up and deal with it, or get out and lets start the picket lines. we cant have our cake and eat it to. we need to be united as one, it is DISTGUSTING AND WRONG how we are treated.

How do you lose 900/mo in taxes? Are contributing a large amount to a 401k?

I see Republic 3rd yr pay @ $36/hr. That's $2700/mo gross.

Could be hotels, parking fees, uniforms, lots of little things that add up.

"True, regional airline first officer (FO) pay is not now a living wage. Why not approach this period as a low-paid apprenticeship."

There goes the neighborhood...

Let your feet do the talking. Best thing I ever did. If you want to fly, support your local FBO.