Preclearance Nonsense
 

I'm sure this has been said, but ALPA PAC reps are out and about in regional crewrooms asking for donations to stop the preclearance facility in the UAE.

Every single airline I am aware of in the UAE that hires US pilots pays significantly more money, treats pilots significantly better than any US airline, does not outsource flying or engage in sham bankruptcies to weasel their way out of contracts, provides better health insurance/childcare/housing/tax/educational benefits than any US airline, and basically raises the bar for all pilots worldwide by providing much-needed demand pressure on the worldwide job market and salary table for all pilots--especially in the USA.

I was a hardcore ALPA supporter when I first got into this racket, but after living through age 65, Pinnacle's sham bankruptcy, PSA's recent contract, etc. etc., and now as we see the union obsessively whining about their mainline masters having to compete head-to-head with Ethiad, I feel like ALPA has simply become a protection racket solely interested in protecting the jobs and compensation of an elite class of widebody captains at US legacy carriers--regional/young pilots are truly just sharecroppers they use as a sweatshop to keep their wages high and coffers full.

Asking starving regional FOs to donate money--above and beyond our dues--to prevent one preclearance facility in the UAE? How about you address the glaringly absurd fact that I fly a plane with a mainline name full of mainline passengers with mainline tickets for poverty wages--how about taking care of that first? How about the fact that we work under the RAILWAY labor act as PILOTS first? How about the fact it is nearly impossible to go on STRIKE anymore? Maybe work on those things with your legislative budget--maybe get pilots under the NLRB instead of the RLA--maybe do that and I'll donate to your PAC fund. But no--no ALPA--I'm not donating to something that will simply kill a potential job for a US pilot at Ethiad solely to protect you half-dead Grandpas and your 777 CA slots at a US legacy carrier--something you have due to luck and timing, and something you have aggressively lobbied to keep for yourself (i.e. age 65) at the expense of young people like myself.

Over it--just absoultely over ALPA and not wearing my lanyard anymore.

Let me start by saying, I am not in the regionals but I sympathize with regional pilots. I think this is a great post. How can ALPA ask regional pilots, Captains or First Officers, to help fight against a foreign carrier when ALPA doesn't fight for the regional pilot.

Besides that, how many flights operated by foreign carriers operate from UAE to the USA daily? Don't they have better things to do? Like fight for the regional pilot group?

exactly !

You realize ALPA PAC is about numbers not money. I am no longer at an ALPA carrier but will continue to donate. A $1 donation puts your name on the PAC list and when speaking to Senators and Congressmen numbers matter. They know numbers=votes. So yes this sabotage issue is VERY important for ALPA, Regional Pilots, Majors, Cargo and all US born pilots. You think there's not some senators that would love Quatar to go do routes like PHL to SFO or JFK to LAX etc? Those are OUR jobs at stake let alone the international routes these airlines would take over and kill.

Again another ignorant statement. Look at Australia and see how many routes Quantas has lost. The regulators there caved in and many Quantas pilots are left out. Do you want to move your family to the dessert to fly for a career? Research before you post. You all have a lot to learn on this very important issue. Its terrifying the comments and lack of education on this issue.

I'll take dessert!

The PAC is one of the few things ALPA National does right. If you eventually want to have one of the wide body Captain jobs you referred to, I'd suggest you donate.

In regards to the pre-clearance facility - not one US carrier serves that airport. Why should our tax dollars go towards making life easier for the passengers of a non-US carrier? I don't have a problem with a facility being built, but it should come at their expense, since they clearly have plenty of cash floating around. The fact that they pay ex-pat pilots well doesn't make me want to open my wallet to help out their passengers.

Emirates is now flying from Milan to JFK. They'd love to do many more segments such as that, and they have the resources (state owned airline) to sustain a fare war with any Legacy carrier.

I know being ignorant is the easy way out of life, but you should care about many political matters (healthcare etc.)if you want to see this country succeed, not to mention have a sustainable career.

Where do you work?

HEAR, HEAR!!

+1.

(While on many levels I agree with the OP, sometimes it's important to get past your personal drama to see the big picture.)

Again, agreed.

It's QANTAS, Quantas. "Research before you post"!

The OP is spot on. ALPA isn't just ignoring the regionals, ALPA is actively fighting against them. ALPA had a direct hand in both the Pinnacle and PSA debacles. Intentional effort by them to set the regional segment back 15 years in compensation. Then they have the audicaty to ask us for donations? Don't think so!

I would not consider the point the OP was making to be "personal drama." In many ways he makes a valid point about the regional business. As another posted, one should not be ignorant to the matter that is happening with overseas carriers and it should be a point of concern. But the one's representing many US pilots (ALPA) have COMPLETELY dropped the ball especially with regards to their responsibilities of representing associated regional groups.

Look at nearly every regional out there...they are fighting NOT to allow a concessionary contract and most are not in Chapter 11 or in a money losing business. The businesses they are flying for are making HUGE profits and then still asking for concessions. And where is ALPA? Practically holding the hand of management and going right along with it.

That is where the point of contention is...the lack of representation. But then they apparently come into the OPs crewroom with tin can in hand asking for money...not that ALPA doesn't already take more than their perceived to be worth. And that 2% can make a big difference to a regional FO who makes a pittance to begin with.

Is that you Captain Moak?

That's all nice. But when YOU look at it from the regional perspective, why should regional pilots have any loyalty to ALPA or US mainline carriers, or US mainline pilots who do nothing but crap on us?

Regional pilots are getting jobs with Mideast carriers in droves, getting paid better and treated way better than with US carriers. and why do we care if Emirates, Qatar, and Ethihad take over US int'l. US regionals will just code share for them! Our jobs will still be secure, and we'll get paid/treated better.

Face it. Int'l scope is a mainline problem. Don't crap on us, then ask us to run with the flag when you need our help.

Exactly the mature response I'd expect from a bitter regional lifer flying a CRJ.

I'm far from Moak - I think he's ridiculous, but I don't have the blinders on like you do.

Weak. You lose. Hope you're close to retirement, Gramps. The Haboob blowing in from the Mideast isn't going to be stopped.

Not even close, think my pic has you confused. I'm quite a bit younger than you, and don't intend to voluntarily give my career away to the Arabs. My support of the PAC has nothing to do with helping out the mainline guys - it's for my own good when half of them have retired in 10-15 years.

Just because your career has been a disappointment doesn't mean the rest of ours have to be. You got your app in at Delta?

How else do you expect them to subsidize the raises at the mainlines? The less they have to spend on regional pay, the more they can spread around mainline.

I agree with just about everything the OP said, especially the parts in bold. Instead of wasting time and effort on a facility in AUH, they need to fix the problems here first.

I haven't heard it put that way before, but it's probably an apt description of national.

You have raised very concerning points.

It seems to me that our government outsourcing those international routes/scope to foreign airlines (for whatever reason).

So, basically ALPA is against outsourcing? Where exactly ALPA were when the majors decided to outsource half of its domestic flying?

All I am saying if ALPA wants more support from the regional pilots, it have to support us first!

The PSA and Pinnacle pilots voted for those agreements. They could have voted them down. The regionals are contract carriers. They keep undercutting each other. The pilots keep voting to continue this in order to get that quick upgrade. I guess the policy is a poorly paid captain still makes more than a well paid first officer. I blame the regional pilots as much as ALPA for supporting these concessionary agreements and voting them in by over 80 percent.

I was thinking the same thing when reading about this in the ALPA newsletters.
Makes me wonder who is going to protect us from ALPA destroying the industry from the bottom up. Yes Pinnacle/PSA voted. But ALPA had to sign off on it. They had plenty of opportunities to stop the negotiating so it never got to a vote. ALPA failed to act responsibly.

How about 80% voted to keep getting paid while we try to get out.

Really? Even when ALPA colluded with regional management to put the pilot group in checkmate? Like when Lee Moak sat down on management's side of the table at Pinnacle and said "sign or you're shut down"? Really? It's all those miserable contractor regional pilots eh?

You do understand that both PSA and Pinnacle voted for their respective contracts. The pilot groups negotiated and voted in favor of the contracts. Maybe if national stepped in, the games your pilot group is playing would be stopped.

So rather than attempt to prevent the UAE from slowly killing the legacy airlines, you'd rather pat yourself on the back for "sticking it to ALPA?" Good plan.

In terms of overall US pilot job protection, they have skin in the game. They need pilot jobs to skim dues money off of - or they'll be out of work right along side of us, since there's no way in hell the UAE airlines will allow any bargaining agent to represent their pilots, much less ALPA.

If you think a world where Emirates operates a lion's share of US domestic flights will be in any way good, you're high. Take a trip over to the "Foreign" section. There you'll find the pilots who work there complaining about the poor schedules that they have zero control of, and a few other problems. Is 200k you're price for turning over all control to a foreign airline? They tell you what you fly and when (no bidding), and impose all other "benefits" as a matter of policy that can be changed at any time. Work rules are the ICAO regs.

I agree there's a lot wrong with ALPA as a whole, but the interests that the PAC represent aren't one of them. The PAC and the representation department are completely independent of each other. Get mad at Moak and Bruce York about concessionary agreements - that's their area of specialty.

It's a pretty ignorant statement to lump the Pinnacle agreement in with the PSA one, and an even dumber statement to say that Pinnacle voted yes for quick/any upgrades! More like voted yes for downgrades!

With a gun to their heads. Hope you enjoyed that profit sharing check you STOLE from pilots who qualify for food stamps.

Typical "I got mine" mainline pilot. :rolleyes:

Another ignorant statement. The Pinnacle pilots/union did not negotiate ANYTHING. It was a "take this or be shut down, or get an even worse contract rammed down you throats by the bankrupcy judge who already said he would....

Take those votes with a grain of salt. Management has a tool they don't have at mainline. United or Delta can't say "take these concessions or we're gonna shut the doors." Nobody would buy that threat. But the fear of having to start over at another crap regional on first year pay is enough to swing a yes vote. Hence the Stop the Whipsaw movement.

Yes.

You have cut those guys a little slack. That's tough one, especially for a lifer with a GED and maybe a DUI or two.

I believe National, by way of Cpt. Moak, had a direct hand in the Pinnacle contract. So by your comment National did step in. Moak also had to sign the PSA contract.

In my opinion, the problem with ALPA is that they cannot represent both mainline and regional in an unbiased manner, due to conflicting interests.

Of course they always favor mainline, because $$$ talks.

If is kind of like having an attorney represent both parties in a divorce, when the attorney is sleeping with one of the parties.

The regionals (pilots) should get together and start their own union.

I nominate we call this union S.T.R.A.P. (Strategic Team of Regional Airline Pilots). We can then refer to them informally and accurately as STRAP-ON.

So I presume youll donate to the ALPA cause...

As a regional FO, the only way for me to be sitting left seat of a wide body within next 10-15 years would be going to Middle East to fly thanks to ALPA approved age 65. Thus, I have very mixed feelings about this subject. I know it's good for the US airline industry in the long run, but what does that mean for my career? Same thing with cargo. If any of you actually pick up the ALPA propaganda magazine (I do occasionally for entertainment value), there was an article written by FDX MEC person about how Emirates cargo is a huge threat to the US aviation cargo industry. It had a picture of a shiny Emirates cargo 747-400. I noticed something interesting about that airplane. It had N registration. Upon closer look, I found out it was actually flown by Atlas. Again, going back to potential career progress for a regional FO, why is this such a bad thing? ALPA created a situation where career progression in the US is so crappy for regional pilots it's almost better to root for the away team :eek:

I contribute to the PAC, yes. I think the guys in Herndon are a bunch of knuckleheads, but I'm happy with my airline's council and the PAC. Sending emails and letters to my elected representatives (half of whom I didn't vote for) doesn't seem like an effective way to voice my concerns. Short of taking up a career in politics, the PAC is the only way to know that my career interests are being representatives on Capitol Hill.

Fair enough then.

No--that is not MY job being lost to Qatar--that is a US legacy 60-65 year old widebody captain's job being lost to Qatar, and a captain's job being created for a younger/newer US regional pilot at Qatar/Emirates/wherever else.

I know quite a few US regional guys who are on the A380 at Emirates--they'll upgrade DECADES sooner there than ANY US airline--so when you say "OUR" jobs going overseas to the sandbox, unless you have a career expecation to hold widebody command at a US legacy within 5-10 years--you're wrong--it's not your job going overseas.

++++++1.....well said