No, I never said they need to pay less to see better returns. But it does add to the bottom line. Pilot compensation is a very small piece of company expenses. I never once implied pilots or other employee groups should take cuts to buy planes. But to say they don't have fiduciary responsibility is not understanding the meaning of it.

Secondly, regarding public vs. private:

American Airlines Group Inc - AAL - Stock Quotes

"American Airlines Group Inc., formerly AMR Corporation, operates in the airline industry. The Company's principal subsidiary is American Airlines, Inc. (American). As of December 31, 2011, American provided scheduled jet service to approximately 160 destinations throughout North America, the Caribbean, Latin America, Europe and Asia. AMR Eagle Holding Corporation (AMR Eagle), a wholly owned subsidiary of the Company, owns two regional airlines, which do business as American Eagle-American Eagle Airlines, Inc. and Executive Airlines, Inc. (collectively, the American Eagle carriers). American also contracts with an independently owned regional airline, which does business as AmericanConnection (the AmericanConnection carrier). As of December 31, 2011, AMR Eagle operated approximately 1,500 daily departures, offering scheduled passenger service to over 175 destinations in North America, Mexico and the Caribbean."

Management is not going to make a decision based on $100s of millions, for a contract that is only going to save them a couple of million dollars. The airplanes will go to whomever Management has already decided to give them to. Stay the course, don't give in!!!! Don't cut the legs out from underneath our XJT/ASA brothers and sisters!!!!

THIS. I actually don't blame management one bit for asking for givebacks. If you have are dealing with a cadre of saps and pushovers who are salivating over mini 737s, why not see what you can get?

VOTE NO

I hope this is true and you all vote this down. A 190 mainline order is better than a regional 175 order. We need to get the flying back to mainline. Vote it down, then you can come to mainline to fly the 190.

Yeah it's so easy to get a job at a mainline why doesn't everyone do that?

Yeah, your job is just sitting there waiting for you at AA. And AA management is going to have all the Envoy guys step right to the front of the line after refusing these concessions... ??

We all know this is probably the best direction for the future value of all careers, but the pathway is the problem. No one has the pathway figured out, and management wants to make us all pay for it. So the big jets are coming, but how is career improvement going to come with them?

what a texasjerk, must be on the bottom of reserve.

No worries. With all the retirements kicking in and Delta, United, SW, Spirit, etc. hiring, then there will be a place for you to go even if AA blacklists you.

I doubt AA will blacklist anyone. GoJet pilots get hired, Mesa, Trans States, etc. The only airline that may blackball you is Hawaiian and that's if you fly for Go!

Edit: I also find it funny you even bring up such a notion. If we vote this in AA will be so mad they'll never hire us but on the flip side if we vote no and we're on the street APA won't be riding in to save the day and offer us all jobs.

What are you smoking? No management on the planet has ever gone to jail "(i.e. Enron)" for not forcing paycuts down their employees throats! Seriously, fiduciary duty to cut the pay of employees of a hugely profitable company with multiple billions in the bank???:rolleyes:

The Enron debacle had NOTHING to do with paycuts for employees...:confused:

So there is NO real reason to vote other than NO. everyone will gate a job at mainline due to retirements just as united has done and they are reducing there feed due to lack of staffing at the feeders.

Because that's what I said. Please learn how to read and comprehend.

I got crickets last time I asked this:

Would all you pilots telling Eagle to "stand strong" be willing to give longevity for bidding AT YOUR COMPANY to any Eagle pilot furloughed in the case that they vote no and AA comes through on their promise of a wind down?

What about 50% longevity?

I think we know the answer to that.

Why would I do that? Nobody gave us at XJT that option when 83% of us told mgt what they could do with their crappy Ta they offered us.

And yes we've been threatened too. We've been told over and over from mgt and alpa exactly when the leases on our aircraft are up. CRJ and ERJ. We were also told that they would bid on no more rfp's if the TA was voted down.

It just goes towards my point that everyone is all harda$$ when its another company but when it affects "you" then its a different story.

Yes, XJT voted no, and that is commendable to say the least. My opinion is that Eagle, PSA, and probably very soon Piedmont are in a worse position due to being wholly owned. The threat of a shutdown is a little more empty when it comes to XJT.

Asking another pilot group to "fall on their sword" without giving them an "out" is just as selfish as voting yes.

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

You need to make decisions for yourself, stand up on your own 2 feet and make your own path. Asking for a safety net like that from another carrier is absurd.

Each carrier is different. You need to decide for yourself what you believe would/could happen depending on how the vote goes. They may have the plan to wind you down in the next x number of years no matter now you vote. So you can stay with your current QOL or take x % cuts and still not know the future. There are numerous possibilities that could happen.

If you've gone to any of the road shows and spoken with any members of the MEC then you would know that the company does not intend to furlough right away. They plan to let the company shrink due to attrition and flow and then eventually shut it down.

I think the regionals will be hurting so bad in a couple years that it won't come to fruition. Just my two cents.

I thought that was a promise, not a threat. I suppose they (United) will start swinging the axe on more that just CLE then. Ha! Lack of "available" pilots? Put bid out to _______ regional airline. Good luck on _______ regional airline getting new hires to fly them. The churn machine is broken. Maybe a couple close to zero seniority guys bail. Almost no one else is going to become a newhire at _______ regional airline. Rather collect unemployment.

I see United is handing out a lot of RFPs lately... going to be hearing crickets not bids.

Off topic slightly, but basically the same thing going on at our house.

That's what I'm saying. Why wouldn't they bid on RFPs? To spite the pilots? It's not logical.

It doesn't make very good business sense to just shut down the business.....

A wholly owned is a totally different animal.

I really don't see how it's any different whatsoever, wholly owned or not.

In the wholly owned world, they are trying to force concessions via agreements AIPs, 10 year contracts, flowthrough carrots, pref. hiring, etc... In the independent contractor model at XJT and Republic they are trying to force concessions through fear mongering, a constant deafening mantra of cost-structure speak about not being "profitable." So the main difference is we have to deal with a company trying to make "profits" off of mainline money that should be in our paycheck if we were simply connected to the mainline without having independent financials. Your version of "profits" are simply reduced costs that are hidden within the mainline carrier's financials. It's exactly the same situation, just slightly different accounting, and possibly more difficult control mechanisms for the mainlines who do not own their regionals. We have no more or less protection than you do.

The only protections any of us may have is how big our particular pilot group is (the bigger it is the more difficult to make real threats due to service disruption-- so for a smaller group, the threats are magnified) and the fact that they are more or less out of new, young pilots who will accept an extended number of years in or near poverty. They're trying to mitigate that with cutting flights and rhetorically blaming a lot of it on the 1500hr/ATP regulations and hoping Congress may backtrack if enough airline service disappears. Probably not going to happen though we may see some more easing on r-ATP quals, but who knows. The 50 dead people are still dead whether regionals are out of pilots or not. Writers of that law would say that was the whole point... reduce access to passenger airline cockpits for less qualified pilots, so it appears to be working as written, give or take.

Why would a CEO shut down his own company? Parker doesn't care who does the feed for AA because its not his company. If he shuts down a wholly owned then someone else does the feed and Dougie still makes money. I'd say a CEO at a non-wholly owned has a vested interest in his company continuing to exist.

If he shuts anything down, he will have to find some entity to replace that (not exactly like going shopping to the corner store for adequately staffed regionals these days), or abandon those seat miles, or have mainline do it. A CEO of a non-wholly owned will quickly shut down if they can't find a way to make some kind of money on something whether it's ground ops, flight ops, aircraft management, painting airplanes, doing contract heavy maintenance, cleaning toilets, whatever... SKYW and RAH are in a pinch because they have top-heavy longevity employees, not enough cheap new hires to staff current ops, and dealing with mainline CPAs that the mainline does not want to negotiate cost increases. But United is in a pinch too having been complicit in this failing contract lift system we have today, with companies slowly losing capability to support the work, and supposedly even paying fines to the mainline for various failures to do the work. So if that is true it quickly becomes stupid to stay in a business you cannot sustain. They tried to make it more sustainable by gutting both sides of the XJT contracts. Well that is not going to work, so the pinch goes on.

So what breaks first? I don't know. I don't really care. I am just not taking it in the nutz for 1 penny of concessions of ANY kind with the mainlines all raking in healthy profits because some airline business brains can't get together and make a system that is functional and pays airline pilots a decent living and offers a decent life (most regional jobs are no such thing). If they want a broken system with flights that cancel and no kids becoming pilots anymore, well fine, that seems to be their answer so far.

It would be a lot easier to "read and comprehend" if you were fluent in English...

I say again, "fiduciary duty for management" doesn't require them to get pay cuts from employees! Show me one example of management going to jail for failing to get pay cuts from their employees.

Eagle AIP
 

There is no example, never said there was. I also said, if you go back and read, that pilots or employees shouldn't have to take pay cuts to get planes.

vote no, there is no company to replace eagle pilots, not because they don't want to but they just cant staff what they have now. regional will have to merge to streamline ops on one certificate to get a few pilots on the balance sheet from the merge to staff just to cover what feed they have today.

mainline ceos busted the model in an act of greed but it is biting them in the *** just like at united soon delta and inevitably aag

Guess I just "misread" your statement above about "managements fiduciary responsibility, if not they go to jail (i.e. Enron)"?

Eagle AIP
 

Never did I say if they don't get pay cuts they go to jail...those were your words. I was making a point about their responsibility to shareholders. Which is to maximize returns. That comes in various forms, one of which is by squeezing labor. Hence their fiduciary responsibility to cut costs and maximize shareholder returns.

They are using Pinnacle and PSA as their reasoning for such concessions against Eagle. Scott Kirby and Parker both openly stated in calls with investors that they MUST compete with Delta and their Pinnacle contact to lower other wholly owned costs. This is how corporate America works and why they must appease shareholders to keep market value.

Understand that you and I are in agreement about how deplorable this is. But I'm simply stating the reasons for their actions and why it's come to this.

Smart management knows that if they take care of their employees, the employees take care of their customers. This has been proven by Southwest paying their 737 crews at the highest rates in the industry, and yet being a very highly profitable company. The same can be said of pay and profitability of flight crews at UPS and Fedex. It's well known by intelligent management that happy employees equate to happy repeat customers!
If current management at some carriers is too dumb to realize the connection between taking care of employees, so they'll take care of customers. It is the fiduciary duty of every crew member at those airlines to vote NO and put a stop to the degradation of this industry by inept management!!!

except when your wholly owned also effects your mainline stock value. Eagle is not as seperate a company as it seems.

My post was in reference to XJT mgmt threatening to not bid on any RFPs, not Eagle.

Three things I learned from todays conference call.
1. Bill Voltek (sp) is a yes voter
2. PSA MEC has stated they would ta more concessions for additional aircraft
3. Mesa MEC lies like their management, he stated all classes are always full, and failure rate is only 10%.

Otherwise nothing new

"The plans are for Eagle to be a 180-197 E175 operator with 40 E145. The E145's will be drawn down slowly over time. The 40 E145 will remain until 2022 for specific markets.

The CRJ's will go to another carrier, PSA most likely. It will happen after you vote down your AIP as a punishment and "we told you we'd close you, this is the first step." Then they will want to negotiate again.

You will get your first E175's as early as the end of summer. They plan to take planes from RAH as they become unable to staff them later this Spring. This is the real reason behind the initial cadre language. The planes will be here sooner than you expect. Just 10-15 to start with. Those will most likely go to MIA or NY I'm being told.

This is the plan, you can vote no, or vote yes. It won't change except for how much profit they make off you; and how much of a stock bump they get from lowering labor costs even further."

Mason, a while back you posted this. It seems eerily accurate.

Never heard anything like that or a hint about it on the conference…..

You have to be a little more of a long-term thinker than that.



Getting a mainline job is hard. Why? Because there are many more applicants than there are positions. Why? Because there aren't many new positions. Why? Because most of the growth or new flying is at the regional level. Why? Because it's cheaper. Why? Because pilot groups continue to be willing to exchange pay for a quicker upgrade or more bidding power. Why? So they can "get their time and get out." Why? Because TPIC time is more competitive for mainline jobs. Why? Because getting a job at mainline is hard.



If most of us took the position of "I really don't care to have additional flying or bigger airplanes unless you give me a mainline ID badge," then perhaps there'd be more mainline ID badges to go around.

I could bid in the top 5 if I turned myself into a commuter and chose to be based in Anchorage. I'm more than willing to go be based in Anchorage, but first they'll have to change my badge from red to blue.

Then if you have any more conferences, somebody should specifically ask if the CRJ's are going to PSA. Then ask how long the EMB's are scheduled to remain before the last is gone. Follow it up with whatthe company plans are for the RAH E175's when they can't staff them anymore. You could also call your union guys if there are no more conferences.


There is no need for concessions on your property. They aren't going to furlough, they will just let attrition shrink you as FO's leave for United and Delta, while CA's flow to AA.

They have already backed away from their threat to Comair you guys; so what are you afraid of now?

Have you bothered to look at the mainline hiring demand over the next few years, not including nationals like jetBlue, Spirit and Virgin?

I think many people saw the last one as a mistake from our MEC. He lied straight up. Doubt it will happen again. But.....

I would gladly limit all pay for pilots to year 12. All the senior pilots that threw us under the bus... well karma is a...

1. CRJ's are gone. Everyone knows that. To whom? I really don't care since that doesn't do any good. "when they go, they stay gone".

2. ERJ's 145 are staying until 2018- 2020 if they last that far. So nothing new here.

3. Someone actually asked about RAH staffing problems with the E175's. I can assure you that know one has been approached as the Initial Cadre for training on those things. They should by now, If Eagle is really going to do this.

4.More Teleconferences this week. Perhaps you should ask your "nephew" for the code.

What did they lie about? Serious question. Everything they said would happen, has, right? I'm not trying to be a richard.

Let me ask you this:

Would you give up the SAP and our critical pay language(even in its current, less effective state) in exchange for what we gave up? I'm pretty sure if giving away the SAP was the term for the acft and we accepted that deal no one on here would be talking about PSA the way they do(brownstreak) when in reality, especially for FOs, it is a bigger money maker for the pilots than the 2 dollars an hour we gave up going from a 6 year scale to a 4. Now the 10 or so dollar loss on the captain side going from 18 to 12 would be a little harder to recoup, but I think it is possible especially under the red/green version of the critical language. Even if you fall a couple bucks an hour short on average the QoL from the SAP for me is worth it.

So, what do you think?

Again I ask this because if the SAP was what we gave up no one would've even heard about it most likely because its just simply not as visible as the pay rate caps, but is a far more important part of our contract.

I won't go into specifics here, i'm sure he did it to get this latest TA passed. It's atrocious, he knows it but doesn't care. He was out of his league for trying to negotiate with senior management. And this TA is proof. Could i do better? No. But i would hire someone good. Someone really good. The cost would have been far less than what we are dealing with now.


The SAP is the only reason i voted for the contract back in April. I don't believe that F/O pay rates should be in the $20's in 2014. Let alone in 2023.
I would not give back the SAP or critical pay. But my vote means nothing because people would gladly trade what's good in exchange for a carrot.
Growth is good for a short period. After the dust settles and the music stops people are going to have to be comfortable where they are. And being paid at 3-4 year pay for years isn't right.