Gulfstream Write Up in Plane & Pilot
 

Anyone see the write up in Plane & Pilot magazine this month? They did a full write up on the flight school/ airline. I am not an airline pilot but I have seen all the hate threads about Gulfstream. I have to be honest though, I still don't see what is so bad about them. You pay about the same price as you would going to ATP, Delta Acadamy, etc... And you would get 250 hour of turbine for that price. What's so bad about that??? I must be missing something. Just curious if anyone else saw the write up.

The problem is Gulfstream is an airline, not just a flight school, and YOU ARE PAYING them to fly as an FO on revenue flights, i.e. your are paying a company to work for them. Not to mention your filling a seat that should be filled by pilot who is being payed industry standard wage to fly that aircraft. The flight schools you metioned aren't using students instead of hired pilots to run a scheduled 121 service. Think what would happen to this profession if all airlines were to do this. That's why people hate Gulfstream.

I put it this way...

Would you pay Burger King $10,000 for training and then to flip 250 heavy whoppers, just for the experience and the chance at a job?

NO!

Gulfstream is the reason pilot pay is down...guys will work for nothing or PAY you to fly a 1900.

As said on another website: "Gulfstream B1900D the only airliner with 20 paying passengers!"

All of those "zero to hero" overnight programs are the same bottom of the barrell crap! Anything that has a garunteed interview/job in the right seat of a turbine aircraft at 300 hours is ridiculous. I don't believe captains are paid nearly enough to babysit!

Gulfstream Academy, Meas Pilot Development, Jet university.... they are all the same-- stay away

ATP is not in that group. They offer an excellent training package for a fixed price. If you are interested in being an airline pilot give ATP a serious look.

-LAFF

I do understand what a lot of you are saying about Gulfstream but what still gets me is it costs $$$ to get your ratings and to build time. No getting around that. There are cheaper ways (as in getting your CFI and building time that way) but to even get to that point can cost 15-25k depending on flight schools and how you go about it. Why not go to a place like Gulfstream where yeah, you are "paying" to fly right seat but at the same time you are flying in the 121 enviroment, building turbine time, and your flying in actual conditions. This seems like a much better training enviroment than just flying around the pattern at your local airport building time. The whole "airline industry" is all about building time and expierence and this type of school looks like it would give you the best of both worlds. Of course considering your going to pay for it somewhere until getting hired by a regional.

Again, I am not trying to start something, I just have trouble "hating" those people that might go the Gulfstream route. I don't know anyone personally that has done it and I myself am not part of Gulfsteam. I am just a private pilot that flies for fun right now! :D

It's not about whether right seat 1900 time is better than CFI time (I don't think it is, in the overall scheme of things). The issue is NOBODY should pay for a job in this business under ANY circumstances. It's just not right and doesn't do the career justice.

From my experience on the matter (which is pretty limited) I have talked to many different pilots who work from everything from Corporate to Airlines and they all have said get your time asap to get that seniority. They said most people in the industry wont care where you went as long as you have the time. Thats all I can say about people I have talked to about it but MOST of the people here dislike it. I can see both sides but cant understand how you could hold it against someone to go there myself. Lets face it whether anyone wants to admit it or not a lot of people on here (including myself) are hardheaded and thats fine thats just how they are and their set in their ways. Do whats best for you and in the end if it bites ya in the butt...at least you tried.

Well, if you chose to go there, that is your right. But no gulfstreamer will ever jumpseat when I'm a captain, anywhere.

At no point did I say I was going there..... I plan on instructing where I go to school right now....

be sure to include ALL ATP in that same category. nice post groovin'

apparently you are not as familiar with some of their alumn as I am:mad:

There 90-day wizz-kids are rediculous. If these guys had to go to the FSDO for their checkrides their failure rate would easily be 60%.

No ATP grad will ever jumpseat when I'm captain.

I haved noticed on here the people that are the most up-tight about "their" jumpseats, are the people who have no authority to deny a jumpseat... just an observation.

I flew jumpseated with an crew the other day and the FO thought he was "Billy-BadAzz" or something... it was really kinda pathetic.

Hang on to your convictions, but don't be that guy...

Good observation, because I think you're right. I just think ATP guys are not held to the standards the rest of us are.

With that being said, if they make it through 121 training, by all means they're every bit as equal.

Dmbinhburg, What do you do for living? What you do is trivial really. Tomorrow, I'm calling your boss, then I'm going to offer to give him $20k to train for your job, and then I'm going to do the job for free. See where I'm going with this?

That's the problem right there. 121 flying with passengers is not a training environment. People are paying money to get to their destinations with pro. pilots flying them, not one Pro. pilot/flight instructor and one student. I know there is a fine line between student and new hire these days, but GIA doesn't even attempt to blur it. One captain, and one student. Inapropriate.

So which is it? Obviously they made it through 121 training if the are requesting a jump seat on "your airplane", so that would make them "every bit as equal" and worthy of the jumpseat. But yet they are still an ATP grad. No ATP grads will jumpseat when you are captain remember? Are you going to ask every jump seater where they went to flight school? So no Gulfstreamers, ATPers, who else will the almighty deny a jump seat to? Get a life.

Great point g2tt.

That's the problem. I know of three females in particular who went there and took a bridge program to XJT. I know guys like LAFF don't get it, but these gals have no bidness driving a car, let alone flying a plane.

[QUOTE=bassslayer;93197]So which is it? Obviously they made it through 121 training if the are requesting a jump seat on "your airplane", so that would make them "every bit as equal" and worthy of the jumpseat. But yet they are still an ATP grad. No ATP grads will jumpseat when you are captain remember? Are you going to ask every jump seater where they went to flight school? So no Gulfstreamers, ATPers, who else will the almighty deny a jump seat to? Get a life.[/QUOTE]

wow. I guess that you are the righteous one and judge of all, right?

Oldschooler... I am a business owner so I am the boss. :D I've had my own business for 4 1/2 years.

You could look at going to Gulfstream/ATP/JET U just like going to college. I went to college, paid 100k for 4 years, got a job out of school doing software engineering but only made 40k. Sounds a lot like going to a flight school (again Gulfstream/ATP/etc...) by paying your 25k for training and time building, you get hired and make 20-25k. I don't see much difference.

As for some of the other posters, I think it's pathetic that you wouldn't let someone "jumpseat" on YOUR (last time I checked you don't own the airplane or pay the bills) airplane just because they went to a flight school that your not a big fan of. Just my observation.

I thought this sight was for pilots; not weekend warriors

HotMama,

Wow, somehow we "weekend warriors" aren't allowed on "your" boards to ask questions. What a joke.

AMEN! IMHO guys who pay to work are WORSE THAN SCABS!:eek: :eek:

They are so retarded they just don't understand they are screwing themselves (as well as the entire industry over). I know of more than one 135 operator that fired payed FOs to get pay-to-fly kids and put them in the right seat.:eek: VERY SAD! In fact, I was denied a right seat job some years ago on a kingair only 5 days before starting because some @sshole showed up paying $18,000 for 300 of right seat time.... he paid for the job I was about to get paid for. He had about a third of my time but it didn't matter...he just made the company $18k plus the savings in wages.

It's even more shocking to me that many complain about Mesa or Gojet pilots, but little is said about guys who pay to fly. Don't get me wrong, Mesa and Gojet guys ARE undercutting the industry and should be treated accordingly. However, those who go to places like gulfstream/Eaglejets/VPJ (any 135 that has a pay-to-fly) are far WORSE than any Gojet or Mesa pilot. At least the Mesa pilot didn't undercut or put out of a job anyone on their way "up" to a regional.

Of course you're allowed on the forum! Everyone's opinion is always valued (only exception is Skyhigh :rolleyes: )

However, since you are not involved in the industry as a pilot, you may not fully understand the topic of discussion. As a result, you may end up looking like a moron.

I actually I believe it states that it is for "current and future airline pilots. Not trying to be a smart ass. I understand that you dont like it when others who dont seem as experienced jump in on a topic, but it would be good if you could respect us little guys:) .

There's a huge difference. In college you weren't taking the job of another person. What if you went to college, paid your $100k, and then upon graduation an outside firm offered to give you "experience" if you paid THEM $40k? Would you be happy with that setup? Would you be happy if you said no, but your former classmate said yes and cut the check?

Gulfstream, and companies like it, hurt our profession substantially more then they could ever help.

Trust me burg, you have a boss, they are called your clients.

That's the most uneducated and ridiculous statement I've ever read!

Just because you might have flown with someone who came from there and was weak (and I'm not sure you have as your allusion to "gals" leads me to believe you're relying on heresay from other captains who probably have a problem with female pilots), that doesn't mean the flight school's students aren't held to the same standards.

I sat in the back of the sim and watched several guys do some TERRIBLE flight skill demonstrations both at interviews and during training. They were from various places. Just like a good pilot can have a bad day and bust a checkride, a weak pilot can have a good day and pass one. Furthermore, the DE's ATP uses are the same ones everyone else uses. And they're held to the same standards. The deal is, they can't bust you if you meet the minimums established by the PTS. And I've seen many the slid by those minimums that I wouldn't want flying my wife around in a passenger jet. I've also seen many many guys at ATP bust on checkrides. Anyone who insists that they're held to lower standards or that ATP is a "checkride factory" has no familiarization with the program.

Lastly, I find it disturbing that XJT hires pilots without a sim check. I've seen lots of pilots that could pass a technical/personal interview with flying colors but couldn't fly an airplane worth a hoot, barely getting their certificates, sometimes after multiple checkride busts, only to get on at XJT. So if you've seen some weak pilots from ATP there, its probably because they couldn't get on with any other carriers because the rest do sim rides in the interview and weeded them out.

I personally know several very weak pilots that barely made it through ATP training that ended up at XJT.

The problem is, these guys don't make 20-25k, they pay to do the 20-25k job. Btw, ridht seat in a 1900 with pax aboard is not the time for someone to be time building.

Well said.

Come on are you serious? I'm going to assume that this a real question and you're not trying to find reasons to go there. Pay for training will not get you far, that's all you need to know. Keep your nose clean, avoid pay for training places and avoid places that promise you anything. I'd even look at places like ATP or Delta Academy with a grain of salt. I've heard mix things especially about ATP about kids who should have no business being in a cockpit.

I don't think so. ATP is one of the most overrated schools out there. They are WAY overpriced for what you get and on top of that they insult your intelligence by saying it's fixed price! Plus ATP has a very shady way of training their students and that is why many don't like them. They train people, who have barely learned how to fly a 172, the airline procedures. When I asked them about the program, the guy on the phone actually said we already know that you can fly, our philosophy is can you fly with 2 people and have good CRM :eek: :eek:

100% not true. People who did it "back in the day" when the likes of Comair and COEX were doing it have moved on. People who do it today at places like Gulfstream move on. Stop trying to scare people into not doing it instead of educating them why they shouldn't do it.

I agree fosters, though I am currently part time instructing while in school, I've looked into this "pay for training" gig, but after alot of negative things have forgotten about it, but I have seen alot of pilots that moved on doing it this way. Its turbine time yeah your flying pax around, but whatever and by the way IF I am captain for an airline god knows when or how long it will be, I won't deny jumpseaters because they went to a flight school I did'nt like.

Oh and some people complain about ATP, DCA e.t.c what is the best flight school then?

don't you mean "if"?

you are 100% right. ATP is a JOKE. They are very shady and should be shut down.

That's why I'll never get on a GIA flight. Student pilots don't belong flying an airliner full of passengers. It would be the same situation as going into heart surgery and being operated on by a student surgeon that payed 5-figures to take the easy way out...

No its not...Search this and other aviation boards. ATP is a well respected , well priced product. It gets you everything ATP says it will and at a fixed price.

V/r,
LAFF