ATP Written Reg in effect soon.
 

I had not heard of any changes to the requirements for an ATP. But according to this article there are BIG changes coming very soon.

The New ATP—A Brief Window Before the Sky Falls? - AVweb Features Article

This isn't new and they aren't changes. It's just becoming effective now versus when the other ATP rules went into effect to give some lead time. I know it's been discussed dozens of times here.

Move along. Nothing to see here.

The airlines will have to make it apart of training. Very few flight schools will be able to offer this. I assume the first part of training will become ATP written training.

My understanding is that your written score will be grandfathered in for 24 months if you pass it before this goes into effect in July 2014.

It may be nothing for you to see, but I had not heard of it. I thought I would post the link for any others who weren't up to date and wanted to learn more about it. :)

After reading the article, it appears they are trying to force anyone who wants an ATP to attend either a Part 141 flight school or a 4 year college program. :eek: From what I can tell, it will make it much harder to get an ATP.

Yes, that is mentioned in the article. :)

FYI: More good news for young guys in this profession (not really). The "Part 142 type rating" factories are developing the courseware as we speak to profit from this reg.....full course cost somewhere around $15k.

Okay, since there is confusion, NOTHING is changing with regards to flight time. Everything the article is talking about is in part 61. Read it.

The only change from how things are working now deals with prerequisites for taking the written test. You have to be endorsed with the new ATP rules and, in order to get that endorsement, you have to go through a training program.

Yes, and the training program must be in a FFS in a "heavy" aircraft. It's the FFS requirement that will drive up the price of the course and hinder competition. The NSP won't let just anyone "sponsor" a FFS device.

I've heard of part 141 but what is part 142? I know the advantage of part 141 is the lower hour requirements and the fact that failures aren't pria reportable but what is the advantage of part 142?

141 = private, instrument, commercial, ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI

142 = allows for type ratings (+ ATP as an add on) in a full flight simulator, not the actual aircraft)

A 142 program is specifically approved by the FAA. There are some private, commercial, inst 142 programs that have lower mins than 141.

Comparing 141 and 142 is like comparing apples to oranges.

Yes and no. I've known 142 programs that operated almost exactly like 141, and the "requirement" for 142 is quite low, you just need 1 level 6 FTD, which is not the intent of 142. The intent is to provide training via level C and D sims.

The intention was to allow for airline-type training (ATP, type ratings, etc) outside of approved training programs for individual air carriers.

A 142 course would be like getting a CE-525 type rating at CAE or FSI. They are part 142 schools.

The sim costs in the article are wildly inflated.

No one is going to be buying simulators for this training, let alone setting up sim facilities. Instead this will be an opportunity to get some use out of sims that are otherwise collecting dust. Fokker, early generation 737, antiquated corporate big iron; there is a long list of sims that are underutilized.

The cost will be less than half the quoted figure. My bet is way less than half. These programs are going to be the Wendy's chili of the flight training industry -- assemble from the leftovers, post it on the value menu.

142 schools use sims is easy way to think of it. Think Flight Safety or Simuflite.

And heavy aircraft are >300,000 pounds for takeoff. No requirement for that under this reg.

I'll remember you said this.....

I can think of at least two underutilized 727 sims which go for 170/hour... Seems like with our dwindling 727 fleet these would be a natural fit for this reg... Not to mention giving "modern" pilots some hands on systems training without any training wheels.

The point I was originally trying to make.....

New Training Rule To Cost Upcoming ATPs Thousands of Dollars | Aviation International News

Simuflite and FSI are already the leaders in the business.....they already have the staff, the classrooms, the simulators, the regulatory paperwork, etc. in place to meet the 30hr ground and 10hr flight requirements.....they also have the FAA approval and can easily get any approval required because the FAA is already onsite on a daily basis. In DFW, the FAA has a brand new building and an entire staff of aviation safety inspectors (formerly at the FTW flight standards office) dedicated to nothing but part 142 oversight among the local training centers......an entire building full of inspectors!! Each and every aircraft requiring a type rating or specific training (ie: King Air 200) has its own "group" of safety inspectors. I promise 142 training centers will be the "go to" facilities for this training in the future. Sorry to disappoint, but come August, passing an ATP ride will not as easy as booking some heavy sim time and flying to the required standards.

Not to be pedantic, but isn't the rule change just additional requirements for the ATP written... Not the ATP ride/training itself?

Click Here: New Training Rule To Cost Upcoming ATPs Thousands of Dollars | Aviation International News

This is spot on.

Whhooooooo cares?

Now that is a mainline attitude. Not caring about those behind you.

Congratulations....

Now, how does that help those who turn into pumpkins in August.....along with the option of taking ATP rides in 172s:confused:

Yep... and that's why I am taking the ATP written in July, in hopes that by 2016 I can hit 1500. I suggest people in similar situations do the same. Unfortunately I cannot convince some of my friends and coworkers about this.

I would assume that after the first 12 months or so, the airlines will start including the training, they'll be forced to once they start to see a bunch of their 1500 hour applicants need it. Would suck to miss the deadline and have 1500 hours but still not be hirable until you fork over the thousands of $$ yourself though, and unfortunately that will happen bc I've talked to several people who had never heard of this somehow.

Well, then they deserve to pay the price. This is has been looming on the horizon for YEARS. If you don't take the test by the cut off then have to foot the bill, I have zero sympathy for your stupidity.

Just to clarify, this should say "low paying regional airlines" (I know, redundant). The majors and the quality nationals/LCC's don't have and never will have a shortage of qualified applicants....at least in the foreseeable future.

I know this is a forum for regionals, but I think any opportunity to quash the notion that there is pilot shortage for the entire industry should be taken.

The training centers will charge what the market will bear. You can get a type 737 for 8 grand, a G4 type is 40 grand. Both require more classroom and sim time than the ATP training program.

Whew. Thankfully someone here can predict the future.

What if a person just turned 20 and has ~1700 TT 500 TPIC /135 Current. But cannot take the written due to age, and will not fork over 15K. Zero sympathy for that?

Fine.

There is no way that the program for the ATP written is going to cost 15 grand in a world of $8,000 (and less) full type ratings for 737s, A320s and MD80s.

You need a retired, medical'd or unemployed airline pilot to stand in front of a [large] classroom for 1 week. You need 10 hours in whatever sim is not getting much use in recent years. If you run the numbers it comes out to something in the $4,000 to $5,000 range.

That is not small change to a young pilot, but it is a far cry from $15,000. The original article is clearly, and deeply, flawed. In fact it reads like one of the RAA's hysterical press releases.

I don't have sympathy for most people. I've had several major setbacks that were no fault of my own and you don't hear me whining that it's not fair. I picked a different path and trudged on. You're 20 years old and years ahead of your peers. You're going to be just fine.

The requirements for the new ATP written can easily and seamlessly be intergrated into regional airline training programs. In fact, I would be surprised if most didn't already exceed the requirements. The only difference would they would have to endorse you for the written prior to your ATP/type-ride.

I never said it wasn't fair :p. I just simply refuse to sign a check for all the money in my savings account. AND take 1/2 a pay cut. I urge others who don't take the test for what ever reason, or can't, to NOT pay for it.

It's not helping the industry. After you get your CPL and the respectable amount of flight time, you don't pay for anything else. ( Types, ATP's etc). Hack after you get 250 hours and a CPL, you shouldn't ever have to pay to fly again.

Paying for this course goes hand & hand with those hated ( I dare to say it) Pay to Play programs. To me it's the same thing.

How was I going to apply for, and be compeitive for, any of the jobs I wanted after 20+ years of flying if I didn't pay for my own ATP?
that comment seems a little BROAD in scope

Why not?

Want to fly transports? Then get rated on transports. If getting qualified is a problem for you then take a hike.

With your logic a PPL and 300 hours of flight time should be sufficient to be hired into a 135 operation, since the only thing that's missing is just the rating, and who needs a silly think like that.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume with that flight time and that age you haven't forked over 15k towards aviation yet. If you have you must be some sort of wizard.

I may have been a little broad.

Sure, if you want to go fly for a competitive cooperate gig, going and renting a PA-44-180 for 5 hours and taking a checkride isn't what I'm saying. BUT there are some people willing to spend 1,500K for an ATP just to apply to a regional.

Second note: No, a 300 hour pilot has no business flying 135. My logic was some people are willing to pay ( Having a CPL) to sit right seat in say a PC12. I have a buddy that tried to do that. OR getting your CPL and paying 10K for 500 hours of "Turbine time". That's what I was getting at.

The reason why we shouldn't pay for that ATP course? The regionals (Most) have the facilities and instructors to take a extra week to offer this course.