LOL I don't think the regionals have budgeted for 6 freggin' hours of level C/D sim for every Tom Dick and Harry coming through the door for a 20K job. I think this is gonna get nixed. Don't get me wrong, I'm busting my popcorn out and watching this train wreck (whilst getting my ATP written knocked out before August for sure) devolve into what promises to be a sadly entertaining clown show. I simply just don't see them holding the line against the lobbying powers that be. They'll cry uncle up there onn the Hill and waive these sim requirements.

$1500/hr for atp applicants is a non-starter when the regionals are staring at not getting applicants PRECISELY BECAUSE people are no longer willing to go into debt for a 20K job. Paying 10K now for an atp ticket without the subsidy of an airline, is going against the very grain of need on the part of these operators. As much as Congress loves the knee jerk reactionism, when they catch word that the level C simulator mandate choked the pipeline at the regionals and their constituents are crying bloody murder because their po-dunk regional airport connecting flight disappeared overnight, they'll fold right ricky tick and roll it back.

I wish I was retiring from the military right about now. This would be the perfect time to get on some juicy and lucrative simulator gigs. It's gonna be bonanza up in the sim outfits. Like clubbing baby seals. Make more than a regional CA and be home every night. Probably afford your own airplane too. :D

You raise some good points. See below.

Not true. Short answer is 1200 hours and SIC or autopilot in lieu of SIC. I have and currently fly 135 with pax and the FAA does not require an ATP; however, see below.


Prefer may work for some. But some 135 operations require ATPs to comply with state laws.

I left the 121 world to go back to flying air ambulances under 135. I work for a CAMTS (CAMTS | Anderson, SC 29625) certified company. CAMTS mandates higher mins than the FAA (including ATP for what normally would be a Commercial job), and some states require operators to be CAMTS to service their state. (How that works, a state superseding the federal government, is beyond my paygrade, but it happens)

Other certification groups also require ATPs.

The question is, what will these certification groups and the states do when ATPs become too expensive for an individual to pay for them.


Hopefully, my employer and similar companies will realize paying me a few thousand dollars more is cheaper than giving a new hire an ATP.

It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out to say the least...

(a) No certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command in passenger-carrying operations—
(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter, unless that person holds an airline transport pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that airplane.
(2) Of a helicopter in a scheduled interstate air transportation operation by an air carrier within the 48 contiguous states unless that person holds an airline transport pilot certificate, appropriate type ratings, and an instrument rating.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section, no certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command of an aircraft under VFR unless that person—
(1) Holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that aircraft; and
(2) Has had at least 500 hours time as a pilot, including at least 100 hours of cross-country flight time, at least 25 hours of which were at night; and
(3) For an airplane, holds an instrument rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category rating;

So I think yes, you need 1200TT to fly 135 with less than 10 pax, more than 10 pax requires an ATP.

eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations

I agree it'll be interesting. IF FSI or Simuflite get in the game, they'll hire 121 guys to teach. They hire BizJet guys to teach BizJet classes, what's the big deal? Especially Simuflite, there are probably 5000 121 guys in a 2 hour drive from DFW.

It's too late to dig it out now but I believe both PF and PM time counts, you're teaching CRM after all.

So why to people get the ATP now if it's not required except for air carriers (and odd jobs)? How may times have you seen here people asking should I spend 4K for an ATP or 8K for an ATP with a 737 type? If PanAm or Higher Power started a program I'll bet they could do it for 6K. Two guys spliting a 1K/hour sim for 10 hours is 5K each, another grand each for the classroom days and if you have 4 pilots show up you're printing money.

So how many non jet 135 gigs are hauling more than 10 pax? Not being snotty, but asking.

Haha I was actually looking into how many people the average biz jet holds, and it's under 10. ( I don't know much about the corp world ).

But yeah, I get what your saying.

And IF FSI, or any of the other 142 ops get into the business, the only way to get an ATP would be to go 121.

I predict many pilots would go to a regional, and then bail once they received their ATP.

And it's only 6 hours for the level C/D thing. So 3 hours each. What do FTD's run for hourly?

Here are some excellent references on the subject:

FAA Advisory Circulars- AC 61-138 and 61-139

Twin Otters over the canyon are all I can think of at the moment.