Regional and Family
 

Yes I'm a newbie. Although I have been on this forum for few years, I have never worked at any airlines in the past. I am currently married with two boys (7 yr and 3 yr old).

Low pay for Regional FO is one thing but having to be away from kids 4 days each week totaling 16 days per month sounds scary. That's if 4 day trip is norm.

So how do you guys with kids balance this? Do your kids suffer because you're away so many days per month? How do you make it work?

What do your kids think of you being away so many days?

How many 4 day trip compared to 2-3 day trip can one expect? or is 4 day trip rare thing that happens once per month?

Lastly, does being away become easier once your kids get older? say high school. LOL! Probably not...right?

Thank you very much all!

I don't have any kids, but I know plenty of airline guys that do. At the regional level it can be tough, especially as most regional schedules are not very commuter friendly. The best thing you can do for yourself and your family life, if time at home is important to you, is live where you're based. That can be accomplished by either applying to a company that has a domicile where you live, or moving to base. This job is night and day different living in base vs commuting. Especially on reserve or if you have uncommutable trips.

That said, life is what you make of it. In your hypothetical example you cited above, someone gone for 16 days is going to be home roughly 14 days a month, not counting days lost to commuting. Depending on how the schedule at your carrier are, if those trips have late starts or early finishes that's up to 4 more mornings you're around in addition to 4 more evenings, assuming one was living in base. One could argue given that hypothetical case you're around much more than a parent working 40-50 hours a week M-F.

I also don't have kids, but I can speak for the schedules at least. 4-day trips are the norm at the two regionals I've worked for. As you become more senior you can hold 2 or 3-day trips, or day trips eventually. Some people bid for CDOs (stand-ups, high-speeds, whatever you want to call them). You're still gone at night, but only one night at a time and you're around for a good portion of every day. You won't get much sleep though.

4 days? Try again. I usually work 6 on 4 off. If you're at the bottom, you're going to get a lot of 1 &2 day hauls with a lot of sitting. Your best bet is to live in base.

Move into your base. Do high speeds and enjoy life. Commute and you will hate life

What is high speeds? and is it something 1st or 2nd yr FO can easily do?

Thanks

Goes by a few different names, another one is a "standup", another is a "nap". But the name that most accurately reflects it is a "CDO", or continuos duty overnight. It can depend on various factors as far as how junior or senior they go.

It's where you're usually flying the last flight out of the night to an outstation, then the first flight back into the hub in the morning, and done. Time on the ground/at the hotel can vary naturally. And is all dependent on the length of flight, the contract, delays, etc.

So an example may be an 8pm show, a 9pm go, 1 hour flight. Arrive at hotel at 10:30pm. Have a 515am report for a 6am go, back into the hub at 7am, hopefully home shortly thereafter. Look at the pattern, you're basically home all day. At one place I worked, they went senior in the summers. The guy gets to see his kids off late at night. Gets home, may take a nap, then gets to spend all day with them. Your rest period is taking place in the day time, NOT ON THE OVERNIGHT. Hence the name, you are on duty all night.

Now, for the variables. At one of the places I worked, there were restrictions on how much time HAD TO BE scheduled on the ground, as well as how many could be scheduled consecutively on your line. We could only be scheduled for 3 in row for line construction purposes. As well a duty rig associated with them that made them not to shabby for pay purposes.

This is going to take this off on a tangent. The bolded part is scheduled. Say that 9pm go is now delayed till midnight. Time on the ground/at the hotel is now very small. If you were banking on that nighttime nap, it's gonna suck.

They can also be hard on the body, unless you can get yourself into a groove as you'll notice you're NOT getting your full sleep at night. I did them for months for the commutability. Get to hotel, get 5-6 hours of sleep (if able), get back home or to crashpad, take a nap RIGHT AWAY, and NOT longer than 2 hrs. Get up, eat, workout, eat again. It worked for me at the time, but I was also younger then. Another thing is, you're NOT flying a multi day trip, with crappy/short overnights, flying 10-18 legs over 4 days. You're simply (usually) just doing one leg out, and one leg back. I haven't read into the details of 117 and how they affect CDO's.

Op,

With 2 small kids I would only say living in base is what you should do. If your lucky you get to sit reserve and see your kids all the time. If not you're gone 4 days and get to kick it with them 3 days.

Commute means you just ate up your days off commuting in. When I had 4 days off. I lost 1/2 day for my commute in and home. Mean I really only had 2 days home.

You will miss holidays, kids functions and other important dates. Skype and modern technology makes it easier and manageable. But keep in mind your doing all this sacrifice while making $1200 a month. But hey, give the airlines a shot. Whats the worse that can happen? The kids call the postman daddy?

Regional and Family
 

Regional life with kids is tough, but what the guys are saying is correct. Quality of Life being based at home makes a difference. I was out stationed in my first turbo prop operator and hated the commute, I came to a bigger regional just for base and got the base in training as I was the oldest in the class. CDOs do work, I had them for three months now and I am home everyday and on my days off I pick up day trips to get me over 100 credit... But once again I am living at base makes it a lot easier.
I have two kids and a full time working wife, if that helps.

OP here,

My intention or hope is to live in base. I am currently in San Francisco so I would prefer Skywest or Compass. I don't know of any other airlines based out of SFO, OAK, or SJC.

Thanks

If you don't mind me asking, how old are your kids and what do they think of you being gone as a pilot?

Thank you

Regional and Family
 

Three year old and a four month old. Hard transition for the three year old but now that I am based at home she sees me more and I help out around the house with picking them up from daycare. It's definitely difficult to get use to for them. As rnav said with new technology Skype and FaceTime you can always talk to them and they can see you and chat.

If anybody can shed some light on how 117 has affected CDO's i would appreciate it.

Compass wants experience folks with pref 121 or 135 time.

SKW is your ONLY option if you live in NorCal...

For Skywest, Prepare, prepare & prepare... If you have done it 3 times, do it 3 more times again....

I can feel your pain, I live in NorCal and now will have to commute because I got turned down by skw.

Compass wants experienced pilots with 121 or 135 time? Why's that, because they will probably have some money saved to pay for their accommodation during training?

Give it another 6 months and Compass will be grateful to get apps from anyone who meets ATP mins, just like all the other regionals.

That is false, they have hired a few instructors recently I've heard. The flow will happen again in 6 months with the need for 150-180 pilots like this year all over again, and people like quick movement. I am sure there will be plenty of apps, if what you say is true about only 121/135 guys , there are probably PLENTY of flight instructor/GA only people applying that haven't been looked at yet. I don't see an applicant shortage but I have no way of knowing that. Also OP Compass doesn't have a San Fran base so you would still be commuting to LAX.

I was waiting for you to chime in and defend your precious Compass. Its a regional that pays dog crap and promises flows just like the rest of them.
I have plenty of 121 & 135 experience and would never send my app to a place that doesn't pay for accommodation during training, then offers $25 an hour. Someone with prior 121 experience deserves more than that don't you think?

Back to "song man's" question. You may get hired at an airline that has a base where you live and you may be assigned that base, eventually. In reality you'll be commuting to sit reserve in a crash pad at a junior base like JFK or ORD and you will be poor and miserable for the foreseeable future.

Its true that you have to look long term, but initially you will have to pay your dues, and for a guy with a young family the first year at any regional will be tough.

High speeds are generally where you fly somewhere, layover for a period of time which isn't long enough to be a full legal rest period, and then fly again (Usually really late arrival and a really early departure). I'm not fully up on the new rest regulations, but say that the minimum legal rest under the circumstances is 10 hours. If you only have 7hours off between flights, the company can't count it as a rest period at all.

So say your based in Chicago. You leave for La guardia at 10pm and get there at 12:30a. You stay there for 5 hours and then fly back to Chicago at 5:30am. You have a 5 hour sit at La Guardia, but it's not a legal rest period, so you're technically on duty the entire time from when you show for your trip in Chicago until you get back to Chicago and are off duty.

Some guys like this kind of schedule because they're free during the day and if you live in base, you're around for family stuff. I personally can't handle it and feel like I have the flu after I fly a redeye, so they don't work for me, but to each his own.

There are several terms for this type of flying.........High Speed, Stand up overnight, CDO (Continuous duty overnight), etc They all mean the same thing.

Besides Horizon, who has higher first year pay?

Your going to let $1000 worth of hotels stand between you and a job?

do not ever ever ever do this,

especially with a family, and double especially for a regional...


a large stable mainline carrier? maybe if you want to live in a large city, but definitely not for any regional carrier

Compass isn't based in SFO as far as I know. Skywest is though, your closest other regional would be Horizon over in medford or portland but that's a commute (albeit one of the better shorter commutes out there)


I may be biased on this subject but come to skywest!

CommutAir for one, and they provide accommodation during training.

SongMan, why don't you take a look at Amflight? They have an Oakland base, home every night, weekends off, turbine PIC, and more pay than the regionals.
Definitely a good place to tread water as the industry picks up if you're burned out with instructing.

Its been argued to death on here with different opinions, but it is possible to skip the regional B.S. altogether on the way to your ultimate career goal, whatever that may be.

Um, hate to break it to you but most of the current list IS going to flow to Delta, hence the movement, hence the reason they have a flood of applicants (well, that and the engines are under the wings ;)) New hires get a guaranteed interview at some point in the future. While the value of that is debatable it is also true that there are well qualified people that can't even get that.
Wait, didn't you also say that people have to pay their dues? I dare say that if you looked at the total compensation one would get from Compass over a 5-7 year period, assuming a less than three year upgrade due to the flows, one is going to come out far ahead of a lot of other regionals.

On a similar note, first year pay at UPS is $33. Would you refuse to go their on principal as well?

Pretty sure if he goes to SkyWest on the Bro that he'll never see JFK or ORD. Shure, he'll be poor the first year, but their second year pay is decent.

Any decent regional will pay for your hotel during training.

As far as amflight, we have 3 amflight guys here in class at SKW and while yes you will be home evernight in hayward, you will also be gone from 5am to 9pm EVERY WEEKDAY. for kids purposes, you are only at home on the weekends.

I'd say go for skywest so you can be reserve at SFO and spend time at home.

Agreed. buddy over there needs to learn about the regional before he bashes it.

He could be a reserve at SFO in less than 3 months. 6 months if you want to be extremely conservative. Hell he could be a lineholder in fresno in 2 months and just drive down if he wanted. But reserve at SFO would probably be better for his family.


To tallflyer: if he chooses the bro at skw, he could be in: FAT, LAX, PSP, PDX, SFO, SBP and SLC.

SLC and PDX would almost NEVER happen even if he wanted it. FAT and SFO would be the two most likely places he would get. For OP I think that's great.

C5 does have a great first year pay rate, but it's also true that 2nd year is mediocre in comparison to a lot of RJ operations, and Capt pay, even with their raise, is still $15 less than RJ guys. There were two west coast commuters in my new hire class and one is now at SkyWest, and the other interviewed there, haven't talked to him lately.
Because working for a UPS feeder sucks, and many of them head for the regionals anyway. I can't speak specifically to the OAK base at AmFlight, but in my UPS feeder experience "home every night" meant at 8 hour rest period, and your days were spent in some crappy crew apartment in the middle of nowhere. On Monday one commutes to the outstation, and Sat one commutes back to your base. That's one day off a week if you're doing the math. Now, if you lived in an outstation life was great, but trying to have a life in the hub was about impossible.

Absolutely deserve more but you bring up Commutair but their 2nd year pay is less than CP or other regionals. So no matter what eventually you will be making less than your counterparts. Whether you go to CP or Skywest and make less 1st year or go to Commutair and make less 2nd year. Also facts make defending CP easy because we actually have movement and flow that will clear out our list ( BTW Delta put out a memo saying all flows will be done by Early 2016, thats 280ish pilots gone by then. We operate at 440-460). It's a regional yes but compared to others it makes sense in this environment.

For the sake of your marriage and kids pick a career where you are home every night and weekend. This job isn't worth it, maybe you will be one of the lucky ones but this job is tough on personal relationships, divorce is rampant is in this industry. Is it really worth 24k a year to miss just one Christmas or one birthday?

I really can't be bothered with these arguments but I have some time so what the hell.

1) A flow isn't the only way to get to fly for a legacy, and not everyone wants to fly for Delta. What good is a Delta flow if your dream is to fly for FedEx?

2) Yes people have to pay their dues, but someone with prior 121 or 135 likely already has.

3) Comparing Compass to UPS is like comparing Mcdonalds to Ruths Chris Steak House.
Of course you would put up with low first year pay if you were hired at your ultimate career destination, which Compass isn't.

4) IF, he goes to SkyWest, AND he gets the Bro he MIGHT be able to hold SFO. It dangerous to assume the best case scenario in this business.

Compass is a great airline as far as regionals go, but for OP to have to commute (even though LAX to SFO is a shooooort commute) his QOL may end up better at SKW. Either way he has 2 great choices both with their pros and cons but also both which I'm sure we'd both agree is a better option than AMF. Not to discredit any AMFers or their experience, but the last 6 AMFers I've spoken to that were on the chieftain all unanimously said AMF was a good stepping stone but they will never go back. that includes 4 people in the last week I've spoken to.


(all 6 are at regionals)

I agree I would go to Skywest if I were the op if staying in SFO is a must.

Thank you for posting this. For some, flying a large jet is the number one priority in life. If yours is family, may be you should consider a different option altogether.

Some on here like to focus only on the positives and are quick to defend against anyone who points out the negatives. Maybe its rationalizing, maybe they're just genuinely proud of their employer.

The truth is, all regionals suck and in the current environment, we should all be demanding more.

Can a regional pilot with a family who commutes realistically shoot for overnights in his/her hometown to offset those 4-days? Especially if the pilot lives in a smaller city that is served primarily or exclusively by regionals (KELP, KAMA, etc.)?

Um, what are you talking about? This isn't a conversation about going a regional expecting that you yourself are going to flow, this is about the FACT that there will be a lot of movement at Compass due to their flow, which is not available to new hires. Nobody is saying go to Compass because new hires will flow to Delta.

You're paying dues at all levels of the industry. The regional FO is waiting to slide to the left seat. The regional Capt is waiting for the Legacy or LCC to call, etc, etc, etc. Gaurantee even you would learn a lot at Compass.
Compass may not be someone's career destination, but it's a darn good way to make yourself competitive to get there. See rejoinder to number two.
Pretty sure anyone that wants the Bro in new hire ground can get it, especially as most want the jet. We've already had a few SkyWesters state that Fresno is very junior, and SFO is available within 3-6 months. Point being, within 6 months he can be in SFO, or be holding a line in Fresno in a shorter amount of time. The drive from the Bay Area down to the Central Valley ain't all that bad.

Point being, if you want to live in the Bay Area as a new hire regional FO, SkyWest is by far your best choice.

So are we to assume by your post that anyone who travels a lot is by default a bad spouse and parent? I'll admit, I'm not married, but I know a lot of guys who are who have understanding spouses and great relationships. It takes work I'm sure, but being an airline pilot does not by default predispose one to failure in their home life.

Sure they can if he/she works for a regional that services that airport and has seniority to hold a line to bid for specific preference like the home airport layovers. On reserve in any company, they will send you where ever they need.

Songman, I'm coming up on 25 yrs at current job. Went from FO on a 1900 to current Capt on 737. I've gone through all gambits of this industry. 3 children (high school and college now) but, grew up with me doing this job. I ALWAYS lived in base which was not where I grew up.(So HAPPY I did that!) I aways stayed senior on equip (waited to upgrade!! Bid reserve in Dec so I could hold Christmas day off!!) since I wanted to see as many kids functions as I could!! And all this can be done IF you live within your means!!!!! Hard to do! A 747 Captain told me when I was at your stage ( I was a 1900 capt) you are probably living more within your means now than when you upgrade to 747 Capt. He was right!! Just remember, guys that get in trouble aren't the ones that don't earn enough, they're the ones that spend to much!! I just recently asked my kids if they hated me being gone 3-4 days a week!! They said not at all, since they haven't know anything different!! :) Hope this helps!! Good luck!

Songman, If you're concerned about your family you just need to remember to leave work at work. There is a lot of drama in this industry and it can change you mentally if you let it. AIDS (aviation induced divorce syndrome) doesn't just happen because you're gone a lot. This is a stressful job with a lot of unknowns. Where ever you choose to go make sure you leave work at the door and make all your home time about family. That would be my advice. Enjoy the 121 world, but it will do all it can to mess with you.

Very Well Said, I agree. I miss the Mighty Beech, great plane!