Guys, there's nothing new here… Doug always talks like this. He gives us his little crew news pow wow's every month at the training centers and there's always lots of Umm, Uhh's.. Monologues full of careful chosen words that just gets him to the next question and to a sip of his diet Dr. Pepper. Thats why many of us stopped attending them… we never get our Q's answered..

Here's a list of his favorite words…

"Fair enough"
"At any rate"
"Thank you, Captain"
"You're, their constituents"
"You guys are tired of hearing it as much as I'm tired of saying it"

For starters, trade deficit =/ budget deficit.

My point was that increasing wages in the US won't directly come back to help the US economy. It will in some areas, but not like it did when we were a net exporter making everything from mining the iron ore to machining the nuts and bolts "in house".

Also you have no idea how badly pilots are paid outside of the US. Yes, some areas are hiring highly experienced pilots for seemingly high wages, but most are paid relatively low amounts in comparison to us when looking at the major carriers. Example, Copa hiring 737 CA's base pay is under $50k/yr.

This guys is as wrong as two left feet. Shame on DP.

If I was a business man i would do the same thing as him. Himself and shareholders are more important than pilots.

Looking at COPA AIRLINES pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements.
you'll notice that a captain at Copa starts out much higher than $50K USD per year, and then when comparing cost of living adjustments in Panama, it's anywhere from 30-40% lower cost of living in Panama vs the USA, which makes their overall compensation worth in excess of $135,000. Yes pilots may be payed less there, but you have to look at the whole picture. Similar comparison to any pilot who lives in the the Northeast vs another pilot who lives in the southeast or Texas. You're purchasing power is drastically different. It's all about where you live....

here's another chart: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...2=Dallas%2C+TX

Thank you, some one gets it I have been saying this for years. This is the exact reason the US economy will never recover.

No, that isn't the reason. You could flood the labor market with money, a large percentage would leave the country and never come back. Christmas is now essentially a Chinese stimulus.

OK...exactly. They are paid well under what our guys make. You base them in their country and pay them well for living there but they fly in the US...

The updated PDF I saw showed a base of $42k that was directly from a COPA recruiter. There are bonuses and such that you might get but the guarantee was $42k IIRC.

Look at Emirates, roughly $130k for a 777 CA, what's the pay in the US? Around double that.

You're both making fair points, and there is truth to both viewpoints. The US now has a SERVICE based economy due to the loss of manufacturing to overseas entities. The airline industry IS a service based industry so you can't really compare it to an import/export based economy. US GDP has been sliding downward from BOTH the net loss of well paying jobs AND the loss of export output/manufacturing. Read the book, "The Wal-Mart Effect". Basically, by corporations attempting to get a competitive edge and making their products cheaper for US consumers through outsourcing they have killed the very jobs and consumer spending power that makes them have a sustainable business model. Airline management has been following this trend for over a decade, however it's obvious to me that it's unsustainable and needs some (or lots of) "adjustment".

Before deregulation, you paid a significant amount for an airline ticket, or you took the bus. Watch those old movies from the 70's. You see families, businessmen, and soldiers riding the bus. The RJ became the bus. If the "shortage" of qualified pilots happens, more people will have to ride the bus. Some of these routes are ridiculous anyways. DEN-COS in an RJ, really? You can drive that in an hour and a half. SFO-SAC, 1.5 hours too. There's a lot of room to cut flights.

Sorry but at $12.00 an hour a McDonalds worker makes more working a 40 hour shift than $23,000.00. I think MCD is too high a bar to set as an example

hearing it's a little difficult to pass ck rides for expat gringos at COPA
Seems they want there own in CA positions - actually all positions. Ck airman did not get the memo about the pilot shortage

Um, uh, oh ,I ,we, me. Sounds like a newborn starting his first words they utter or that's what he said to the cop during his DUI field test. :D:eek:

You realize that the pilot's unions and seniority system are tools used by management to keep labor costs down? Pilots seem to blindly back the union as if it's working for them, not for management.

Without the union or without seniority there would be a free market at play which would require airlines pay pilots market rates in order to attract new pilots and retain their experienced ones.

Doug is just doing his job which is to make as much money as possible any way he can for himself and the shareholders (mostly himself). Our job is to fly airplanes. It seems both sides are good at their jobs but lousy at the other side's job.

If you think the union and seniority system is for the benefit of the pilots (as it was originally intended but is no more), try getting rid of it or refusing to join it and see how far you get.

If you think making 200-250K annually is the holy grail of aviation (very few of us ever reach it), try looking back and seeing how much pilots used to make (adjusted for inflation of course) and you will see not only a drastic reduction in average salaries over time but much lower high end salaries as well.

We've seen again and again that the demand and compensation for pilots has nothing to do with a free market model.

I agree. Unfortunately, those "market rates" would be whatever the hungriest qualified pilots were willing to accept. :(

I understand what you're saying however unions are not just for pay, they play other roles too. But yea they are not necessarily a bad thing for management.

The issue is that pilots fold like a cheap suit when threatened with their jobs. That's the number one rule in the pilot busting playbook for management. We all talk the talk but don't usually walk the walk. Very predictable for management. It's hard to leave your job to make a statement. Now that there's a shortage however we are more willing to say no. But it's just a matter of time before they find another sucker.

This is true...which is why unions should have stuck to this role...but they didn't

It's easy to leave your job when you can go and work for someone else at comparable or higher pay commensurate with experience. It's impossible when we have a system that forces you to give up your career or start at the bottom when you lose your job...who benefits from that system? ---Management and those naive pilots who think they have a descent job that will never go away.

I agree with everything nineGTurn has been saying.

The seniority system is the worst possible thing currently in the airlines. The various airline Unions have grown beyond their original intent and are now part of the problem.

Take away the fear of starting over at first year pay and you have just taken away management's biggest weapon.

How would you go about getting rid of the seniority system? I think that would be a hard sell, especially to those who have vested so much time in their individual airlines. Additionally, the entire system revolves around seniority: commuting, upgrade, equipment, bids, and obviously pay. How do you hit the reset on that?

Hmm, a rather simple way to make a big dent would be to eliminate the whole "upgrade from FO to CPT", in fact, maybe even transitioning to a bigger (higher paying airframe).

Run it like the rest of the world. If you are hired for x position, you work at x position. If there comes a job opening above your position, you can apply for it, just like everyone else that is qualified. So a captain would have experience and could apply as a captain at any airline, and not lose anywhere near as much. An FO could apply to be a captain, which inevitably will happen with attrition, just like anywhere else, only, he won't be guaranteed the job, again, just like the real world.

You could still have seniority within your "grade" or position, which would determine schedules and other important aspects, but if you separate the jobs and the "owed upgrade", you'd immediately break apart the biggest problem with seniority IMO.

Course the pilot workforce doesn't want to "fix" seniority as a whole bad enough yet.

How would it be decided who upgraded and who did not? Most other occupations promotions are based on merit and productivity. The issue with attempting to put airline pilots in that model is that we are all standardized. We show up for a trip and fly the trip. Admittedly, there are personality differences but finding a metric to differentiate one pilot from another in this occupation is nearly impossible. I think the current seniority system is functional, but the issue is that you don't take your seniority with you. One seniority list, as has been discussed in previous threads, is probably the most feasible way to neuter management.

One of the most intelligent discussions on this topic ever, even though it's off topic.

Seniority is always there at most large organizations but may be more informal and without providing entitlements. Seniority can still be used for day to day stuff like schedule bidding, jumpseat priority, etc. It would help to create an incentive for pilots to stick with one company without forcing them to stick with one company.

Think how much money regional airlines could save on training costs without entitlement bidding and entitlement upgrades. They could continue to be a starting point for low time pilots at low pay building experience while still being able to attract and retain the experienced pilots they need at higher pay.

Maybe it needs to start at the regional level. The way I see it it's the only way the regionals can beat their self imposed "pilot shortage."

The way I see it now...the regionals exploited the unionized seniority system too much and now that they are major players in the competition to fill cockpits they've found they're overextended. The old game simply won't work for them anymore.

I thought the goal was the eventual implosion and dismantling of the regional model, where all flying transitioned back to the mainline and the end of a sordid, miserable experiment in a C scale. Why would we be trying to come up with ideas to help management continue in their rapacious quest?

Because if the economy turns down, a lot of the major flying will go away. But the majors still need feed. So if the regional airlines are strong perhaps they can stay in business, feeding or even flying long thin routes on their own label. Perhaps no need for a partnership with a major. It's been tried, but not during a major downturn of the economy. Think how Southwest started against the legacies. Who would have thought they would become what they have in 1980?

The exact same way they decided who got hired and not in the first place? By applying and being selected by HR.

The only way I could see for regional pilots to gain power is to take it (of course it could kill off the regional airlines too!). So the plan. Get all reps from all regional airlines to meet. Form a corporation (NOT a union). Get the majority of line pilots to submit apps to that company. The organization then calls all CEO's into a meeting and says "Our company is in business to contract pilots to airlines. We have a lot of pilots that have applied to us. Most seem to currently employed by you. If we hire this is what we are offering the line pilot. Just thought we would give you guys a heads up. When you have no pilots to fly your airplanes we will be glad to contract our pilots to you for XXXXX amount. Ya'll have a good day and we hope to do business with you in the near future. Of course it would be implied that if the airline tries to hire outside of the EXCLUSIVE contract with the organization it will null the contract and ALL contract pilots will stop flying for them instantly. Legally it is doable. Again it would NOT be a union. Pilots would also be required to de-cert ALPA first to get them and their contract out of the way. Just a business suppyling pilots on a contract basis. Of course ALPA could try to unionize the pilots at the new corporation (well, they could try!). Good luck getting pilots on board with this. It would be like a thousand cats in a giant bag.

Not on Doug Parker's side, but after reading the transcript, my first thought was:

"So pilots are willing to agree to and work for sh!t pay and I'm the a55hole?" - Doug Parker

Seems to me if everyone is so sick of the pay, they'd just walk away from the pilot career; or better yet, never even start one at the airlines.

The truth is hard to escape. The first step to recovery is looking in the mirror and saying 'the regional I work for sucks', not ****ing on everybody else's to rationalize or elevate your position.

How does this square with the Railway Labor Act? Might want to vet it with a lawyer who is well versed in the RLA first.

If there were no union contract and HR picked the upgrades, what would prevent them from making an announcement like this?

"Ten CA positions are now open. If interested, please submit a sealed bid containing your wage offer. Awards will be based on lowest cost to the Company and such other factors as HR may deem appropriate."

Tom,
Correct. Unions have many functions, but one of their most important is to provide some sort of baseline of pay/benefits for employment when there are fewer jobs than there are workers.
One of the great eye-openers of deregulation, back when it started, was the shock many airline pilots had when they found out the results of the political views they held being put into practice. It was quickly determined what the free market value for 727 or DC-9 pilots was...about 1/2 what the established airlines were paying. Plus new ideas like pay for your own uniform, your hotel during training, even your own type rating/engineer ticket. Many of these ideas have stuck and are now part of mainstream acceptance.
Much of what the legacy (those that are still in business) pilots have managed to hold onto has come by shifting the cost cuts to other employee groups.
Example: what once was a career job as an agent/ramper etc at any of the numerous smaller "outstations" are now done by contract labor, with the contracts rolled over every 5 years or so....so any agent can start all over again as a new hire.
Without some sort of pushback, either in the form of regulations/laws/unions, the free market left to itself will always lead to mass penury. (in case the reader feels the last sentence is some sort of leftist/socialist idea, it is a paraphrased plagarism from Adam Smith...and if you don't know who Adam Smith was, then I suspect all the above was gibberish anyway)

Separate seniority based pay from the seniority system.

Keep seniority in place for things such as bidding, vacation, etc... but remove salaries from that system.

Every other industry on earth is able to offer pay and raises without the need of a seniority system. It's even how airlines in every single other country on earth does it. Why should we be any different?

It's no coincidence that the United States has the highest flight time requirements for pilots but the lowest pay of anywhere on earth. In Europe, Brazil, etc...Mainline airlines hire pilots with 500-1000 total time to fly Boeing and Airbus aircraft. They start out making the equivalent of $5,000/month or more as FOs with half the flight experience we had when first hired by Regionals makeing less than $24,000/year. Even less at most Regionals like Republic, Great Lakes, etc...

Something has to give. There needs to be a change. The root of the problem is the seniority based pay scales and the large Unions who support it.

You sure about that? Which ones? Please post specific airline names.

I have friends and family who do in fact fly for airlines in different countries. Through them and their network over the years I have seen how airlines operate all over Europe and Brazil.

To name just a few:

TAM, GOL, Lufthansa, TAP, Iberia, Azul, Air Berlin, and KLM.

The only thing worse at many of these airlines is that their minimum number of days off a month is only 8 to 11. But I have been told there are changes in the wind to increase the number of days off.

So how do they determine pay? Is it through a yearly raise that everyone gets, or is each pilot's payrate determined individually?

As far as I know it's a little of both. Raises are not yearly, but everybody gets raises at the same time. Base salaries always put FOs in the upper middle class strata of salaries so it's never an issue.

I believe promotions to Captain are based on flight hours and evaluated on an individual basis. They do hire street Captains as well.

The best part is if a pilot wants to leave his airline for another he won't necessarily take a pay cut. Experience is rewarded and you would never see a situation like the one at Envoy where Senior Captains making six figures go back to $40,000/year after moving UP to AA.

The RLA regulates airline/airline employees. You would not be an employee of any airline. You would be a contractor. Much like ship pilots operate. Check their current salaries and work conditions. But don't think about it too much. It will never happen. And that "check with a lawyer" quote. I looked in a mirror and checked. I agreed with myself.

So what's to stop me, if I'm an airline CEO, from telling you to go pound sand and hiring guys who don't want to join your "corporation?" I could offer them a bonus over what you are asking for in rates as long as they leave you, and then later take concessions. What leverage do you have to stop me?

So you're a lawyer by trade. Cool story. You specialize in labor law? And what are your qualifications in understanding how line pilots think?

Contracts. I am the guy that companies hire to screw guys like you in words you think you understand, but don't. Yes I am certainly a bastard. And I am nicely retired. I was a pilot back before I went to law school. The 1970's were just as bad or worse than today's conditions. After seven years I made the smart move and left. My three close friends continued and all retired (with less money and more divorces than me). As far as "how line pilots think", too many don't. That is why there is such a mess in the business today. You go to work, you go home. No unity as a group. Like I said this will never happen so don't think, just go to work and pay my Social Security.

You seem to be the one with a comprehension issue. My question is very simple, yet all you persist in is trolling. However, I seriously doubt some retired lawyer, who gotta be pushing 65 or so, is gonna be wasting his time on a forum with regional pilots 40 years junior. I do think you would be a great candidate for TOTD though. Congrats on that.