[QUOTE=deltajuliet;1672960] A top heavy seniority list of old Captains at a regional seems like a legitimate problem for both airline management and all the guys trying to flow through to a major ASAP. Lower Captain pay at a regional would encourage these guys to move on, improve flow, and enable significantly higher starting wages for the many multitudes of people coming and going at the starting FO pay.QUOTE]

****************************
That sounds exactly like what the PSA, RAH, and Eagle contracts were supposed to do,.......except for the part about "enable significantly higher starting wages" part.

Do you really intend to have us believe that if Onstien, Bedford, or Parker, et al, get concessions from the top of their pay scales, they'll replace those same dollars at the bottom of their payscales???

I don't think so.

 

Fixed it for you. As Long as Alpa is in control, they will promote the PSA type of airlines.

 

ALPA and regional pilot pay do not mix.
Fixing Pilot Pay at Regional Airlines | Airline Pilot Info

 

Well, obviously in the course of new contract negotiations, redistributing those dollars to the bottom would have to be an established bullet point. I feel like a Communist saying that... But having said it, I'm not sure management would care as long as they're not paying more cumulatively.

Anyhow, it's just a thought.

 

I've said before, regional airline pay for low time first officers is not and should not be the issue. A guy coming on board with no jet time and low total time does not deserve or command a high salary until that pilot has earned it. I would guess at least a year or two.

This isn't the problem however. The pay for pilots who are experienced, whether it be because they've built up a couple years under their belt or they're new to the airline but they've got equivalent experience from another carrier must go up.

This means the regionals need to be able to pay higher wages to new high time first officers or direct entry captains in order to attract the large number of high time pilots out there looking for work for whatever reason but don't want to bother starting over at the bottom.

They also need to be able to seat lock first officers longer and equipment lock captains longer in order to reduce excessive training costs.

To do this they need to completely restructure the seniority system that holds everyone down.

This would solve the pilot shortage overnight.

 

Because getting the crap best out of you I a 150 for 1500 hours isn't paying your dues. Give me a break

 

I accept the realities of the industry, but 1500 hours is hardly inexperienced. You're addressing part of the problem, certainly, but although I don't know the statistics I'd imagine 1500-hour FO new-hires outnumber high-time pilots transferring in.

Regardless, the shortage is a whole different animal. In regards to the context of this thread - raising regional pilot pay - I think the best utilitarian solution is to help the greatest number of pilots. Since most only reside at the regionals for several years, squeeze the pay scales towards the middle. Bring the pay up for the 80% of guys aiming to get their time and go to the majors within several years.

 

I agree that the 1500 hour rule isn't going to solve anything but it does stop the airlines from abusing the system just a bit. Starting pilot flight time really isn't the problem.

1500 hours in a single engine teaching kids (probably foreigners) is tough work and builds solid experience but it doesn't make you an experienced airline pilot.

The reality is that if the regional airlines raised entry level pay for first officers significantly, suddenly people with 1500 hours would no longer be competitive for those jobs so they'd be spending 2500-3000 hours instructing instead of 1500 hours. There's plenty of higher time pilots that would take the jobs instead.

This is actually how it used to be....20-30 years ago people with 1500 hours didn't get hired at regionals (flying 19 seat turboprops) and those that did got paid better than new hire RJ co pilots today (adjusting for inflation). They also didn't expect to spend more than a few years at the regionals since they only made up about ten percent of the workforce.

In other words...we didn't need a 1500 hour rule back then because the regional airlines didn't hire people with such low time anyway.

I'm advocating a free and open market where new pilot pay is based on market rates which will always be rock bottom for someone who has no airline experience.

But I think that the airlines should be free to hire pilots at any experience level and at higher pay to attract them without those higher time pilots being lumped into the same new hire category as the zero time pilots.

 

NineGturn is absolutely right:

In 1985 Simmons Airlines at DTW paid $13500 for FO.

Today's dollar equivalent value would be $29800.

That shows pilot pay has gone down quite a bit.

 

For that matter, does 1000 hours in a harrier qualify you as an experienced airline pilot?

The argument goes both ways. Airline pilots are not paid to fly as much as a CFI is. Airline pilots are paid to hand fly until the autopilot kicks in, from that point they are paid to be there and know what to do if something goes wrong.

In reality, the scale should be not straight up, it should start at say $30/hr and then around year 7-8 level off until year 10 or so and then begin to increase again. This promotes transitioning to the majors around year 7 or 8, rewards high-time, high-seniority captains that stick around and also provides a boost to new guys so that they are not living twenty five to a two bedroom apartment.