Raising Regional Pilot Pay?
 

Number one in the top 10 lies told by regional airline management is raising regional pilot pay will not help fill their new hire classes.

Endeavor to Delta (which I think is ill conceived and will prove a failure) proves raising new hire pay would, beyond any doubt fill their new hire classes. Endeavor now has hundreds of applicants.

In my opinion, new hire pilots at regionals should start at an absolute minimum of $80 an hour.

Every day the regionals fall further apart. Now is our time to permanently fix this problem. Band together. Stay strong and restore our profession.

Never gonna happen when people are willing to take jobs at the bottom feeders.

I don't see there being an end to 1500-hour instructors willing to chase the "quick upgrade", especially when all it takes is filling out an app and you're in.

Monkey see monkey do

Know what you're getting into or don't do it!

I could see a "pass through costs" being set up by the majors.
70-80 seats rj pilots are put on salary across the board.
FOs get $65000
Captains $125000
It doesn't matter how much or little you fly, junior guys get run about 100 hours a month and seniority buys the 70-80 hour lines.

So pilot compensation is pulled out of the rfp but all the other overhead variables apply. That is the only way a major could insure that while paying more for a contract, the contractor will actually use the money to attract applicants.
A c+ scale is cheaper than an A scale, plus frequency is still intact.

Just a possibility.

I thought the appeal of outsourcing from the majors was the cheaper cost of pilot labor. When you factor in the costs of redundant departments required by having a second operator certificate operate your flights (MX, dispatch, scheduling, etc.) you have to cut costs in other areas. Mgmt loves to use us as a scapegoat for their cost overruns, and if that excuse goes away, then the redundant costs have no more offset, negating the utility of outsourced "regional" flying. If that plan went forward, they might as well just absorb all their outsourced flying.

I think we'd all love to see it, of course!

Two Dollars!
 

Just to add fuel to the fire,......

* On a 1 hour flight in a 50 seat aircraft, (assuming an airplane full of revenue passengers), a first year First Officer (i.e. XJT) is paid 43 cents per seat. If it's a 67 seat airplane, every passenger contributes a mere 34 cents to the co-pilot for that same 1 hour flight.
* Same scenareo and a 5 year co-pilot; 82 cents of every passengers fare goes to the co-pilot on a CRJ 200. It falls to 64 cents per seat on the CRJ 700.
* At the top of the XJT CRJ 700 F/O payscale, (18 years) each passenger seat contributes a whopping 70 cents per hour to the co-pilot.
* 5 year Captain makes $1.36 per seat in the 200 but falls to $1.06 in the CRJ 700.

A regional airline could *DOUBLE* pilot pay by adding about $2.00 to the price of every ticket. And here's the dirty little secret that management won't admit: at the same time.........they could *DOUBLE* or *TRIPLE* their number of pilot applicants!

But hey,....that might cut into management bonuses, so let's not think along those lines. We'd rather see the airline fold than dig into our bonus structures.

$2.00!

If the pilot pool truly dries up airlines won't hesitate to throw lots of money at applicants. I don't think we are at the point where they are worried yet. If 1500hr CFI's dry up, the only source of new pilots will be stealing them from other regionals. Only way that will happen is either significantly raising starting pay or 20k+ bonuses.

I'm curious to know how you determined this.

You need to figure paying the crew-members not on the aircraft as well and the associated taxes, contributions, etc. You're really looking at something closer to $20.00 before you can talk about *DOUBLING* pilot pay at the regional level.

Do you know what starting pay is at mainline carriers?

Pie in the sky numbers don't really help the discussion. The current range is $20-$40/hr for FOs when it should be around $40-$60/hr. That is a realistic pay scale and would attract plenty of applicants. There is no reason new hires who have taken on loads of debt should start at less than 40K a year.

The guys at the majors will never let regional pay go up. They will be offered 10% raises and boom more scope will be sold away.

FYI, gzsg = mainline Delta pilot.

How do mainline pilots control regional pilot pay? If more scope is sold away how will this help regionals fill classes they can't already fill?

The EMB145 costs about $5000.00/hr to operate that number includes fuel, maintenance, and pilots. A typical XJT crew pulls in about $90 /hr for both CA and FO. That is less than 2% of the total cost per hr to fly that aircraft not including management costs. It is beyond belief that increasing pilot pay is an unreasonable request especially given the current environment of record profits in this industry.

Yuma

A few points gentlemen....

$80/hr is more than any major airline pilot first year pay, and is more than a majority of regional captains make. This number, as a 1st year pay, is absurd, if for no other reason that it provides a reason for yet another low-cost regional to enter the picture. Somebody will do it for less.

Point the second: if an RJ or ERJ costs $4000-5000 an hour to operate, a few items were left out. MX, crew costs, and fuel are only 3 variables. There are also the costs of other employees that need to be paid, and their salary is drawn from the same revenue sources. Your benefits must be paid (I am willing to bet that your carrier self-insures for health insurance; your "insurance company" simply handles the billing and logistics. When you to the doctor, the portion covered by insurance is actually paid by the carrier); overhead; landing fees; gate leases; your hotel rooms; the various taxes that are paid on your behalf; all of this must come out of that revenue per block hour.

I'm not suggesting regional FO's should not make more. They should, but they won't for as long as people are willing to either enter the industry or re-cycle through if they lose their jobs.

Point the third...As for taking on the debt to get here...nobody forced you to do that. There are ways to avoid that, and there are careers to choose that either don't require it, or offer a great return on the investment in the early years.

I do believe, however, that the day of reckoning for the airlines is near. I have friends that are RJ recruiters, and the situation is dire. But until the cancellations start building up, the majors will not increase the fees that they pay for departure. But...it's coming.

I wonder what the average CEO's cut per seat is....

I've said for a long time that crews would do better if they were paid NOTHING by the company and instead passed a tip jar through the cabin. If every pax tipped only $10--far less than a standard 15% tip--the crew would do far better than they do now.

And what about the dispatchers? I found out how much dispatchers make for Great Lakes at once point. And you thought piloting was bad.

There is only one shot at more money. (Unheard of money)
1. Airlines must remain profitable. (Looking at you Unitard)
2. The purse for funding flight training must remain closed.

Without these two items, (1)capacity or frequency could easily be cut, (2)there are a million kids willing to take out >$100000 loans if banks would still write it. If funding is made available again there will be pilots o'plenty for the whipsaw.

Raising entry level pay isn't the answer. It's raising the pay for non entry level new hires.

The shortage isn't of pilots, it's only of low time pilots who are (and should be) willing to work at very low wages for a year or two until they actually have experience and aren't low time anymore.

The problem is that the seniority system in the airlines (all airlines, even the big ones) requires that all new pilots be treated as if they've never flown an airliner before and paid accordingly.

Get rid of or highly modify the seniority system at regionals and you'll solve the problem.

How is seniority handled by Europe or China?

I don't know anybody that is young or with low time applying and getting hired by the regionals.

That's seems pretty high for a small jet. For sake of comparison Southwest says it costs about $4,800/hr to operate a -700. I see how the 145 is not cost effective if $5,000/hr is an accurate number. The -700 burns about 4,800 lbs/hr in cruise and the crew cost (2 pilots + 3 FAs) is about $475/hr. That's $2,700/hr for fuel and crew spread out over 143 seats. Fuel and crew on the -800 is about $3,150/hr spread across 175 seats.

I think it has more to do with getting off a second class citizen seniority list than it does raising the pay on the sub-human seniority lists.

The 2013 Business & Commercial Aviation Operations Planning Guide shows a Legacy 650 (corporate version of a 145XR) has direct operating costs (fuel, maintenance, engine reserves) of just under $2400/hr; a Challenger 850 (corporate version of CRJ-200) is a hair over $2900/hr.

If you add crew costs, you must add not only the hourly payrates but amortized benefits/training/etc. in order to get a realistic number.

In the end, doing so is largely academic because regional carriers generally get a fixed fee for departure that covers cost + profit. Any increase in costs cuts into that profit, and mainline partners are not going to pay more than their lift contracts dictate - they'll come up with non-financial incentives (this EtD program) or simply terminate agreements due to the regional's inability to meet contractual requirements.

What he saydd

Any discussion of ticket prices is completely misguided. Regional airlines operate under the "fee for departure" business model. We're in a totally different business than the majors/LCCs.

people need to pay what a service costs.

eggs and bread costs the same for just about everyone - basically the going rate.

if people paid what an unsubsidized ticket really costs it would be the going rate.

no fancy math trick makes anyone an honest profit. (i.e., sit 8 but only paid for 4 u fly)

if pilots all said i cant fly for $26 an hour eventually tickets would be the going rate.

and pilots would get paid what their number was to leave a land based job for the window view seat. (i did a previous post on what number would get you to leave and work for an airline)

i apologize for any punctuation or typo errors all from a phone.

good flying

For math purposes, in RFP's a -200/-145 is around $1000/hr and a -900/-175 is around $1250. Corporate (a few hundred hours a year) vs a regional at 1000+ per airframe is a different metric. Carry on, just spitting out some realistic numbers for the math gurus.

Amazing. Can't even get a Caravan for $1000/hr on the 91/135 side.

Very very differently

What does this even mean? If you're trolling just ignore my question.

It's because the numbers are not accurate. There is much more to operating an aircraft than DOC. The DOC of an E145 is not that high.

The actual costs of operating an aircraft will vary from operator to operator and also between routes, days, seasons, etc.

Profitability is something entirely different also.

The numbers I quoted were hourly direct operating cost - fuel, maintenance, engine reserve.

The only possible way you get a CRJ2 to $1000/hr is if somebody else is buying the fuel. Oh, wait...

The only realistic way I can envision raising regional pay is to top off Captain pay lower. Squeeze the payscales towards the middle. People might say guys like Jonathan Ornstein are the devil, but really, is what he said here that unreasonable?
A top heavy seniority list of old Captains at a regional seems like a legitimate problem for both airline management and all the guys trying to flow through to a major ASAP. Lower Captain pay at a regional would encourage these guys to move on, improve flow, and enable significantly higher starting wages for the many multitudes of people coming and going at the starting FO pay.

I understand a few of these guys have special circumstances where it doesn't make sense to move on to a major, but can anyone explain why some regionals (Mesa, etc) have so many senior Captains who refuse to leave? And I don't mean to bash any senior regional Captains, just a legitimate and sincere question.

The benefits of having seniority, including schedules/vacation/other QOL factors?

And that makes some sense, but it seems like a tremendous example of selling oneself short when a 19 year Mesa Captain makes around 100k and a 2nd year Delta FO makes more than that. Not to mention Delta Captains top out at around 250k a year.

I understand an older regional Captain sticking around if their retirement isn't too far away (although why get into the game that late in life?), but they say your worst day at a major is better than your best day at a regional.

One has to place a value on quality of life; some value the ability to fly when they want and get time off when they want more than a total on their W2.

I agree with most of what you said, however, the notion in the industry is the belief that a regional is a stepping stone is a pretty big assumption. Sure...it's the natural progression of this career, but you have some that start this career later in life; have homes that are paid for; spouses with 25-30 yrs on a job; not to mention QOL/scheduling/seniority; etc. So being a 15+ year CA at any regional under those circumstances would warrant me or anyone else for that matter to stay where I am.

JMO though.


atp