I def think there should be a min time requirement no more green on green type of waivers and some form of combined min experience like you said. I've flown green on green it was incredibly dangerous and I can't believe the FAA signed off on it.

Assuming Age 65, this provision would mean that you'd have to be at least 56 to be a 121 FO.

Aside from that, the combined total time, time in type, and age is an interesting concept.

Math. You're doing it wrong.

I laughed out loud. Thank you.

They already have something like the max combined age in that if you are over 60, the FO isn't permitted to be over 60. I think that covers it.

I think "green on green" needs a change but I don't know that total hour mandates are the way to do it. I don't have another solution, but reserve staffing would be an absolute nightmare.

Analogy.
 

Imagine a consortium of lower-end hospitals and medical clinics across the country whining that they are having a hard time attracting doctors to practice at their hospital for $20,000/year.

Now imagine that those same hospitals and clinics want to lower the requirements for their employees to be able to perform surgeries such that only a bachelors degree in biology or anatomy is needed.

Then imagine that this these hospitals and clinics are not required to tell their patients which of their surgeons are actually doctors and which are merely 22 year-old biology majors.

Anyone see a problem with this arrangement?

Well said.

And imagine if you could go from Zero to Surgeon in only a few months!:eek:
Thank goodness times are changing.

Yea, but hopefully we are not going back to "zero to surgeon in a few months", that's the challenge here.

When places like Allegiant have 3 month upgrades, it says a lot about the state of the industry.

Is incapacitation the only issue to be concerned about?

That analogy really doesn't work here. That in essence is saying on the aviation side you'd be using a private pilot to do a commercial/atp pilot's job. No, your analogy is very much off.

I think you're missing the point. Or you're intentionally trying to redirect the conversation.

The point is not that it would be like using a private pilot to do the work of an ATP or biology majors to perform surgeries. The point is that the people who want to lower the standard(s) for doing each of these jobs, (be they Airline or Hospital executives) would be asking permission to compromise public safety simply as a shameless and self-interested effort to maximize profits and THEIR BONUS CHECKS!!!! It's a ruse!!

Can you really tell us that this consortium of airline executives are seeking a rule change to lower the requirement to act as a pilot, under Part 121 simply out of a benevolent concern that places like Fort Dodge, Kansas may lose airline service?!?!? Reverend Bedford, J.O., et al. don't give a DAMN about how far the people of RedAss, Minnesota have to drive in order to catch a flight! It's about M.O.N.E.Y.!!!

I don't think its off at all.

Student = Intern
Private = Resident
Commercial = Attending
ATP = Fellow

Maybe because Allegiant has gained the reputation they deserve and no one is willing to bet their career or life.

i just found an ad for the ctp (the course required to take atp me written after aug 1st) allatps is offering it with training given at higher power aviation. just $4995. im very surprised so inexpensive. 6 hours in sim , 4 hours in ftd and 30 hours ground school given by atp pilot with at least 2 years experience in 121 ops. i expected course to be 10 to 12 grand. by the way still waiting to find out whether canadian atp license holders will be required to take this course or not before taking the atp faa conversion written test. if not, would be a great loop hole for those who have the faa cpl and 1500 hours, , go to canada convert to canadian cpl/ifr/me (its easy) then take the samara/saron written (its their atp test) then the check ride. then take the 40 question atp usa conversion test
and now you have 2 atp licenses for about the price of one and you have bypassed the ctp and save 5 grand !

I'd bump those up a bit.

Student = College Freshman
Private = College Sophomore
Commercial = College Junior
ATP = Bachleor's Degree in Biology/Pre-Med that can texhnically be called "doctor".

The rest can be measured in the amount and type of experience.

The majority will just do the written as part of 121 initial training.

Everyone is blowing this thing out of proportion. The airlines already have training programs ready to go for this.

Now, if you don't want to work at an airline then that is another story.

Really? Because a certain DO at a certain company based in the midwest seems to think that since all these people graduating from college have student loans, they surely must have money left over to pay for a training program before they show up for initial...

Would this be Gojet?

The majority will just do the written as part of 121 initial training.

Everyone is blowing this thing out of proportion. The airlines already have training programs ready to go for this.

Now, if you don't want to work at an airline then that is another story.


i agree,
i wonder how this will affect foreign students coming to usa for atp license/rating and now have to pay another 5 grand?

Disclaimer: I didn't think the apt written was broken. Stupid, but not broken.

Airlines will pay for this anyway but lets say that they do get congress to overturn things, kids still can't get flight loans.

Banks have the money and don't plan on loosening the purse until there is a chance they will see a return on investment. Don't be fooled that anything else, the banking melt down caused this pilot pinch. There are a million and one high school kids ready to flood allatpjackwagonsr'us and the like in a heart beat if only they could get the loans.

If they hadn't cut the pay and benefits for 10 years after 911 they wouldn't be in this predicament now.

This is a management induced problem because they let CFO run companies. Free market let pay rise and more people will become pilots.

I keep hearing that you cannot get student loan money for flying anymore. Is this really true or just an urban legend? I have been done with flight training for quite some time though, so I have no idea

Not an urban legend.

That's mainly because of the new TDY/virtual basing thing they came up with. If they'd set that up right senior FOs would have bid it and upgrade would still be 2-4 years, depending. But as it sits, none of the senior guys want to touch it and combine that with almost every west coast FO not being willing to upgrade to FL and you see what's happening now. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see street captains or JA to upgrade by years end at this rate.

This is what I don't understand; I've got a buddy who just graduated with a four year degree in art with 70k in student loans. Who the heck was issuing those loans for a degree in art?!:confused:

Higher probability of the loan being paid back. McDonalds pay checks always cash....

You can get government backed student loans for around 80K. The old Key and Sallie Mae loans that people used to get for 100-200K have not been available since 2008.

I got a sallie Mae loan in 2011. Government backed loans are only available for institutions of higher learning. Flight schools do not qualify.

You may have a point, but the crappy TDY program also comes into play.

OK, but what about the four year degree aviation programs? UND, Riddle, Purdue, ERAU, WMU, etc.

I have friends who are in serious debt because of places like Riddle. There is no way those powerhouses are letting their flight programs whither and die. I'd be very surprised if they were denying new loans to them.

This is exactly what I was thinking. No way those places would be cut off from the student loan funding stream.

Many great posts. Unless congress/politicians are willing to bridge the terrible salaries and the cost of doing business with their own money, the airlines will continue to shrink unprofitable routes/ operations in which they have to invest their own money to make a profit.

The real problem with staffing is wages. You can work just about any job in America and make more the a regional pilot. Kids coming out of school are not going to be jumping at a 20k job when they can make 35-50 with corp america. Compound that with the cost for training and you got a shortage of pilots.

No new facts here, but a new opinion piece from the Buffalo News.

Stand firm on air safety Foolhardy FAA again seems willing to weaken vital pilot training rules - Opinion - The Buffalo News

And, again, the Federal Aviation Administration looks to be trying to weaken the new flight safety rules enacted by Congress in the aftermath of the deadly 2009 crash in Clarence Center. It’s becoming routine, and the FAA is beginning to show what appear to be its true colors – more concerned with satisfying the airline industry than it is in ensuring air safety.

Let’s be clear: Fifty people died here because of poor pilot training. Flight Capt. Marvin D. Renslow took the exact opposite action the situation required when Continental Connection Flight 3407 stalled due to dangerously slow air speed. That’s why the Families of Flight 3407 campaigned and, with the muscular help of Sen. Charles E. Schumer, D-N.Y., fought for legislation increasing training requirements for new pilots.

The law was passed and virtually since that day, the airlines, the FAA and even some in Congress have sought to subvert it. Schumer has helped to fight back against those efforts and we presume he will monitor this latest maneuver to ensure that the law is fully implemented.

Industry leaders are shedding crocodile tears about a lack of pilots because of the new training requirements. Basically, they want to continue, as much as possible, operating in the same way: underpaying and overworking pilots whose training doesn’t cost too much. It’s a cynical game whose consequence played out in Clarence Center five years ago.

This issue cries out not just for our congressional delegation and the Families of Flight 3407 to stand firm on this issue, but for Congress to evaluate the function and performance of the FAA. If it has been so badly infiltrated by the airline industry that it cannot reliably implement safety laws passed by Congress and supported by Americans, then perhaps its mission and organizational structure – including its lines of accountability – need to be re-evaluated.

The crash of Flight 3407 was a watershed moment. Too many Americans are being flown on regional carriers, profiting the large airlines at the expense of passengers whose safety has been placed in the hands of inadequately trained, poorly compensated cockpit crews.

That changed with the ensuing legislation. It needs to stay changed.

Well, we're mostly still poorly compensated. And my training hasn't changed much.

Difference between government loans and private loans. Once the GOVT money is exhausted, people starting turning towards the 11% interest private loans. Of course you can eliminate those in bankruptcy, the GOVT loans not so.

I was a stupid 20 something in college that over-borrowed and used the money for things other than school (I'm sure I'm wasn't the only one).
However, mine totaled 26K for a four year degree at Western Michigan University and flight training outside of the aviation dept. I got a degree in psychology and did all my training at a mom and pop part 61 school (Private to ATP). Didn't hurt me a bit that I didn't have the aviation dept pedigree. The cost these days is absurd through the university. I could go to Law school at the University of Michigan for the same price.

As to the art degree it's not just that - I see a lot of people getting sociology degrees with 60K in loans that have career prospects in the 35K range. My B.S. in psychology would be basically minimum wage worthless outside of aviation had I not leveraged it into human factors work and entered graduate school.

The FAA mission to concomitantly "promote" and "regulate" aviation are diametrically opposed philosophies.

I was just looking out of curiosity to what Riddle and UND cost.
I was in shock when I saw it! Riddle is 43k a year just for a BS degree. Plus another 60K for flight training. Then you add on room and board and all the other ridiculous fees and charges. Your looking at close to 250K!!
I went to UND in the 90"s and I think it ran about 65k. For same degree and training that you get at Riddle it's about 150k... UND is a bargain if you can get reciprocity,it might knock another 20k off. If you put these figures in front of a 17-18 year old kid they might think twice about it. I know I'm not paying for my son to do this, and i'm definitely not co- signing a loan...
It should be illegal for someone to spend 250k to make 22k first year and at some regionals not more than 35k as an FO. That was eye opening.