Should Regional Airlines Exist?
 

Please vote in the poll. Screen names are hidden in results. It would be great to get a few hundred responses if possible.

You might be a YES voter if you feel some of the following is accurate:

• Pilots have to pay their dues

• In order for pilots to make lots of money at the top, there has to be a low paid group at the bottom

• Scope is irrelevant

• Companies are free to make money however they want, law of supply and demand in effect

You might be a NO voter if you feel some of the following is accurate:

• Regional Airlines are nothing more than a B scale

• The difference between the top of the payscale and the bottom is too large for doing the same job

• All jet flying needs to be flown at the major airline

• Current model does not support one level of safety as mandated

What we really need is a return of the CAB and regulation of the prices...ergo higher pay

This is an absolutely pointless poll.

1. No sane pilot wants regionals to exist... their sole purpose is B-scale, further depressed by whipsaw.

2. Pilots don't decide whether regionals exist.

How is it pointless? Are you are telling me that all major airline pilots want the regionals to go away? Having low pay regionals around has something to do with their high salaries.

But none-the-less I appreciate your input and thank you for voting in the poll.

Should Regional Airlines Exist?
 

Yes, small props to serve regional airport in the middle of nowhere. Not to connect ORD and SLC on a 76 seat jet.

Just to ask, why can't those small props be flown by major airlines?

if you do not like regionals existing, the eliminate them and raise the ticket prices by 100% to cover the increased mainline pilot list. If not increase the ticket price, then give up 30-40% of the current mainline payroll to cover the cost increase to cover the same flying at mainline.
But remeber, no matter how little your income will be you can stand up and say I AM A REAL MAINLINE PILOT, in that food stamp line.

because mailine pilots did not want to fly props.

gotcha, thanks for your vote.

Smiling to myself as I type this. Do we really need a poll for this? Is there really a single pilot in the US that thinks the Regionals are a good idea? I predict 100% no votes by all Major and Regional pilots. And I'd truly like to sit at the bar on an overnight with a yes voter and listen to their arguments for a Regional system.:eek:

This pops up from time to time. They sure seemed to enjoy flying Connies and Clippers. If the Dash was the first plane on the way to a 380 or 787 I'm sure they wouldn't squawk much.

And in the 90's with advent of the "RJ", they didn't want to fly small jets either.

If the economics dictate that small-plane pilots get paid peanuts, at least give them a mainline seniority number for their trouble.

The reason the mainline pilot groups never wanted to absorb the small plane flying is because new-hires fresh out of the military would then have to fly small planes for low pay to start with. The current system allows most military pilots to get into the money immediately, while maintaining a b-scale caste system made up largely of civilian pilots. Doing anything else would be a radical cultural shift.

Truth.

Interestingly enough though, when the RJ came online, the B-scale at the majors already existed. Making the RJ (at that time) a C-scale wage.

This poll is stupid. The dual purpose of regionals is 1. Screwing over labor and 2. Outsourcing MX, safety, and liability in the event of a crash. Period.

It has zero to do with paying your dues. If 50/70 seaters were flown by mainline you'd start at 40-50/hr with a crappy RSV schedule and work your way to 300+/hr in the left seat with 20+days off/month. All at the same airline.

Instead it's 5-10 years of servitude only to re-interview and be treated like a FNG with all your seniority, vacation, and benefits reset.

Complete and utter BS. I wish the media had the cajones to say that when they talk about regional airlines and the body count they've stacked up.

Not saying I don't believe you but can you back that statement up in some way?

Incorrect. Your point of view may be skewered if you are a regional airline pilot. Major airline pilots will be invited to this poll at some point, we'll see what they have to say. Major airline pilot pay is high because they they have traded scope for pay. And just like at the regionals, guys at the top of the list make the most.

Without Regional Airlines B scale, I hypothesize that major airline pay would be lower. The scales would be flatter.

When PanAm owned Ransom, and there was one seniority list, the fact that new hires had to start on the turboprop equipment was in fact "an issue".

This was also true when USAir operated the M298 (Nord 262). That program was moved to the regionals, and the mainline pilots seemed to be happy to have it gone.

Make no mistake about it, the regionals exist like they do because the major airline pilots did not want little airplanes in their fleets. Of course no one says that, but the track record from the 1980s speaks for itself.

No, it has to do with union voting rights. If regional pilots were at the mainline, they would be the largest voting group.

Ha! That's funny. I'm sure they'll get right on that. Maybe if they nationalize everything then we can all get 20 and out pensions! Weeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Just the sense I've developed after almost 30 years in the military and 20 in aviation. It's by no means some vast conspiracy, it's just that it would be a big cultural shift...that alone has been reason to resist change, let alone actively promote change.

Also from the ,management perspective it would be harder to attract ex-military pilots if they had to start over at regional wages...many would just go get a real job (which most are qualified to do).

All things considered, bringing regional flying in-house would cost more...probably a lot more.

This is why it's only beneficial to the majors. The only way the regionals are absorbed into their mainline partners is if the regional shortage gets so bad that the majors are forced to do so.

And then beware the "Revenge of the B-scalers". It might happen anyway, but mainline pilots fear that it could happen faster if a B-scale gets inside the house. :(

AMR pioneered the model we have today. They did that in 1982 and others followed. They also started the infamous B scale at the same time. Most pilots that voted to approve those contracts are likely retired already or are about to. Tom, I'd love to see the problem fixed but be careful with statements like you just made. My point is, the can of worms was opened years ago. Maybe approach the issue like we have a case of outsourced labor resulting in reduced service, reliability and even safety. Taking the stand that major pilot's benefit is the wrong approach. Work together, not against. I don't think that major pilots benefit (maybe they did initially, but IMHO no longer) from it but I do think the regional pilot does get shafted.

In 1982, I was in Jr High. I have been on both sides (used to fly pax for both reg and major) and I have always advocated one pay scale and flying for one group but don't rob Peter to pay Paul, it isn't necessary. Secure the flying first under the major current pay and negotiate next. Someone will always feel slighted in the process, they always do.

I have also flown turbo-props to 747. The fact that I made a pittance to fly a 19 pax Regional prop was ridiculous and embarrassing. I always thought it must be that killing only 19 lives justified the pay (sarcasm...). I enjoyed flying turboprops much more than the 747 I fly today. Airlines can afford to raise pay at the bottom, period. If they raise it and go out of business, so be it.

Rickair7777 has a very good point about the military argument in that it negates the avenue from military to airline bringing a lot of experience to the table. I have heard it before but believe it just continues the pit against groups, just a different group. One argument that someone posed is to give them credit for service and allow them to bid a higher group of a/c. Something to ponder but inevitably someone gets the feeling of being shafted. Depending where you are at in the food chain, your mileage may vary.

this is why i voted yes. Companies like Cape Air come to mind

It's funny how many people seem to ignore this little FACT.

Trying to extract the productivity that an RJ is capable of from a legacy contract would get VERY EXPENSIVE. Considering the rigs, min day credits, monthly credit caps etc. Compile that with what 117 has done to regional sector.

The simple answer? Well, simply reinvent the B-scale, AGAIN. Bring the RJ's in house, under better rates, but under a different set of work rules that would allow the extraction of those efficiencies without the pesky legacy work rules (labor costs) getting in the way...........

It simply turns into a self defeating concept that you explained. Who wants to go to work at a legacy if they have to start on small paying equipment with crappy work rules? Again, basically a B-scale.

Now, that all too easy retort to that is "well, with the pilot shortage, a pilot won't be on the that B-scale very long". Sure, right. Another terrorist attack, another economic collapse, another massive oil price spike, whatever. A pilot could be stuck there for a loooooooong time. Ask a junior USAir/UAL Airbus pilot how happy they were to be on reserve, under that crappy concessionary contract, under crappy work rules, for damn near 10 years

If it was cheaper to bring the regional feed in house, it would have happened A LONG TIME AGO.

The way Delta is running right now, if they could find a way to make it cheaper bring the regional feed in house, they would have done it.

I've always thought what you said would be an interesting concept. However, what would they do for civilians that worked for 5-10-15+ years, then they get furloughed or the company goes under and they have to start at the bottom again?

It's a rhetorical question. But it presents an interesting problem none the less.

I don't know the history of all the regionals, but in the case of the original ExpressJet, it was Continental Express before being spun off through an IPO. Pilots accepted low pay, because they flew turboprops AND they had a Continental seniority number. "The internship mentality". These pilots had about 2000 hrs of flight time when hired and MANY HAD TO PAY FOR TRAINING in the '90s.

Pilots at CAL Express would flow over to CAL and were treated exactly the same in terms of flight benefits and many other operational matters. This was the vaunted "pathway" that the RAA is bandying about now. Then 9/11 occurred. CAL pilots flowed back to CAL Express as part of the flow agreement, but after they went back to CAL, CAL mgmt. rescinded the flow-up

CAL spun off CAL express and created ExpressJet--and it's been downhill ever since. IF the majors do bring regional flying in house, what is to prevent the same thing from happening again?

I think 'backflow' is the cost of having a mainline seniority number upon hire at the regional. Although undesirable, I think its fair.

And before that, it was composed of various "commuters". Bar Harbor, Britt, Rocky Mountain, etc. Just like AE was Simmons, Nashville Eagle, Wings West, etc.

That concept existed long before the concept of the flow.

There's more (A LOT MORE) to that than simply what management did. The previous union and ALPA had a hand in it as well. Believe it or not, there was a time where it was on the verge of a single list.

However, your points about it going downhill are valid. But mostly apply to the COEX/XJT of old. There's a whole slew of other regional providers that went through a crap ton of suck long before CORX/XJT as part of the outsourced business model. XJT simply got to be "insulated" by the IPO/spinoff stock pump and dump for a brief period of time. AE is going through a similar issue.

In the words of the character in your avatar;

"What did we learn?" ;)

I'm in agreement with you. There are plenty that cry that a FTA doesn't work. Well, I guess that would depend on how it's structured, wouldn't it?

In the case of the COEX/CAL flow, it worked pretty friggin' good. On the way up, as well as when they flowed down BACK to their seat/seniority/pay.

The structure of the ORIGINAL NWA/New Co/"across the table" agreement wasn't too bad either. Although it was born for different reasons.

Well if it's a choice between working at a crappy regional without a mainline seniority number, or working for mainline under a crappy b-scale until you have the seniority to bid bigger equipment, most would take the later.

The problem is the likely inevitable compensation creep without whipsaw, and the issue of military pilots.

Agree completely!!!!

I'd rather be furloughed awaiting recall from a legacy and working at Home Depot than grunting it out at a regional and wanting to put a bullet in my head every day I go to work.

But the points that you, me, and others are getting at in this discussion is that simple solutions are seldom either/neither.

Where was the outrage by regional pilots when you guys were growing at historical high rates in the early 2000's? All you guys were willing to accept jobs at regionals at low pay to get yourself some jet time. The major pilots had little leverage in our negotiations when you had a line of wet behind the ears pilots all willing to throw themselves into a jet cockpit for a quick upgrade.

Just because your pre-planned career path didn't materialize isn't always the fault of someone else. The regional pilots are culpable for a great deal of what is taking place currently. They were all willing to accept low wages in exchange for experience in the hopes of landing a major job. The major pilots are finally taking back scope and there is a realization by airline managements that outsourced flying wasn't the cure they thought it was. As fewer jobs at the regionals exist and more mainline jobs are created there will be a significant number of RJ pilots that won't make it to the next level for various reasons. The number of major jobs won't equal the lost RJ jobs.

Why do the regional pilots want to always be portrayed as a victims. Were they so focused on SJS they couldn't see the future.

And in the 90's, the legacies were willing to trade scope for a big paycheck, defined benefit retirements, wide body orders, etc.

The SAME reason the legacy pilots like to play victim. Were they so focused on paychecks and HJS (heavy jet syndrome) that they couldn't see the future?

But man, what an epic coup for management. Simply help to create enough problems that pilots will be distracted and simply fight amongst themselves while management continue to prosper.

'Murica, eff yeah!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this true? Where is this happening out of curiosity?

Should we have a "dolt-ish" and pointless poll??

NO

!!

In the early 2000's places like Comair, Eagle, and Continental Express were the only civilian path to their respective majors. In the case of CE, the rug was pulled out from under us by CAL revoking flow-thru and spinning off the CE into Expressjet. ALL the pilots at the majors sold scope. ALPA heralded increasingly bad regional contracts as "landmarks that would ensure pilots have jobs". ALPA did nothing to even try and increase the QOL at the regionals. They spent money inflating giant animals to put outside airline HQs, but didn't spend a thin dime to advertise the poor pay problems of outsourcing. ALPA has a crap PR machine. Only the crash of Colgan 3407 got the public motivated to slow the race to the bottom. ALPA was totally ineffective. They could not even get known crewmwmember through--an ExpressJet FO did that, by simply refusing to be groped on the way to work. ALPA DID take credit for his efforts, though. Most of us at the regional level believe ALPA has not only failed us, but that it never really tried in the first place.

Interesting theory, and it makes perfect sense. But regarding military pilots, why are they so highly revered? Does flying an A-10 or C-17 make you a god among civilian pilots?

On the flip side of that, I also know some military pilots who did their 20 years and are now going to regionals. What gives?

My theory is that if regional airlines are going to continue to exist, ALPA is not in their best interests. But pilots don't directly control that scenario so its best that pilots find better representation at this level now. I can't think of a bigger conflict of interest as major airline pilots make the most money on the backs of regional pilots by selling scope.

Once the scope is sold and the bottom feeders (Hulas, JO, JA, etc) scramble to be the lowest bidder, there really is little independant representation can do at that point. How would a RALPA equivalent do anything different?

The connection summit groups or whatever they are called illustrate this perfectly. Everyone handshakes and backslaps, but ends up going back to their corners and voting to undercut the others to get work. Other than an IndyAir scenario, which is even less likely to succeed these days than in the past, union affiliation has little to do with the plight of the ACMI low bid section of the industry. Its a mainline problem and will require a mainline solution by tightening scope. Changing the card in your wallet will do nothing to fix the core issues.