Forget about Capt/FO pay. Explain why any FA should be paid more then any pilots. No FO at regionals should be getting less pay then the highest paid FA at a mainline.

Hmmm. Worked for me in pre-post test and worked just now. Might be an android thing. Just search Youtube for "child tantrum" and take your pick.

Except you know the whole completely different company aspect

Are you saying that pilot wages ARE determined by the free market? That upgrades ARE merit based? That FOs DON'T have an ATP and type rating just like a captain?

Seems like you can't argue against my rational points, so you're only response is to call it stupid.

You are not rational and adults don't normally argue with children. Go on thinking what you want to think. Just know that every single person who sees you in the cockpit is thinking "oh god, not him again".

My point still stands....and you continue to prove it. You are trying to argue that the CA and fo share the same responsibility.....that is absurd.

I recognize that the captain is the PIC and has the legal authority/responsibility, I'm simply arguing that there is no justification for the huge pay disparity between the two seats. At certain regional airlines, a senior FO can earn as little as 30% of a senior captain. That is what's absurd.

If people became captains based on merit, there could be an argument for the huge pay gap. But since it's usually based on when you get hired, I don't think there's a justification.

That was a Republic lifer after finding out he wasn't going to steal an Airbus seat after all! :D

....And ALPA would be the first to welcome him to the airline, as long as he pays his dues.

Remember what makes you a captain, its not your skill, its when you got hired ONLY. Both pilots in the cockpit do basically the same job, and violations and certificate actions come in pairs, not just to the captain. There should be a flatter version so that this industry can hire otherwise you entitled captains might find yourselves in downgrade class earning pennies. Then, you would have a different perspective about the pay scale.

Even better would be if captain pay stayed the same and our greedy mainline partners paid more to increase FO pay to narrow the gap.

Very sad isn't it...

You do realize that pretty much every captain started out as a first officer right? How is our "perspective" lacking??

Because a lot of regional captains upgraded in 18 months to two years, while some were even hired as street captains. That's why you lack perspective.

I knew that would be the entitled groups argument...

Had to work many crappy jobs and fly thousands and thousands of hours before they would even consider us back then. Flew air ambulance, night freight(loading and unloading required), charter, etc. Did that for a lot longer than 18 months to 2 years. Nobody was doing street captains then, and wouldn't have wanted a job at a place so crappy that they'd need them either!
How's that for "perspective"?

None of what you said is relevant to the facts that:

A) It is unfair they do not have what they want when they want it, and
B) It is unfair the world does not orbit around them as it used to when their parents were failing so utterly to raise them.

Do not attempt to apply reason; it has no place in this discussion.

Well why are regional CAs entitled to such high wages? The only reason you are a regional CA for more than 5 years is that you are a failure - a lifer plain and simple.

It's not about FOs being entitled to better money, it's the amount of idiots at the top who can't hack it so they stay safe in their tiny RJ cockpit getting fluff checkrides from their buddies.

Keep the pay scales the same, just force out loser lifers.

For every CA that has a low time pilot he or she was baby sitting, I have a CA that would have gotten us violated.

But the guys here don't seem to realize violations come in pairs or that at an airline, the only difference between a CA and an experienced FO is their spot on the list.

Just ask all those entitled Pinnacle FOs (displaced CAs) slinging gear for junior Colgan CAs...

Yes, it's all the FOs fault, they are entitled brats from the Me generation.

You sound like gods gift to avaition!

There can only be one factual answer to that question regardless of which side of the argument you fall on. It's because a small, select group of pilots decided that was the way it was going to be.

If you don't like the pay why do you show up for the job? Look in the mirror, you're the one responsible for the pay. No one forced you to work for the rate you signed up for.

Why does the job pay $22 an hour to start. Because there are plenty of pilots willing to accept it. -- including you.

RJ captain should pay $100 an hour minimum. After all that's only second year FO pay at most legacies. Why does it pay less. Because 99% of the regional pilots have agreed to less.

Not true. While a small group may be responsible for negotiating pay scales, each pilot, regardless of seat, carries equal weight when the whole group votes to ratify or decline them.

Not all of them. You seem to fit that mold, however. It is (sadly) ironic that your attempt at sarcasm, at least in your case, hit so close to objective truth.

Yes, "regional" airline FOs should be paid more, and yes, "regional" airline captains should be paid well. No need to take from the captains just to give the FOs a decent wage.

I agree with tom11011 about starting wages: if starting wages weren't so abysmal, it wouldn't be so prohibitive to leave a crappy company and start over somewhere else. It would give pilots more leverage, and we wouldn't have to play their fear games of "we'll shut you down and you'll have to start over somewhere else for $21,000" every single time they try to squeeze more concessions out of us.

I have flown with so many former Comair pilots, laid off 91/135 guys, and military Lt. colonels and up. Most of which have more experience or qualifications than I do, but ultimately I am the boss. I don't believe treating the flight deck environment as "I'm the boss", but some one has to be the ultimate person that buck stops with and that is the captain position. There should be a higher pay scale for captains, but slightly. No fo should start out less than 40-45 an hour - period.

Several of the Comair guys that were 20+ year guys there mentioned that if they had to do over again, they would have fought to increase pay at the fo level there, but also urge alpa national to create one for for all regionals. The obvious reason is they are starting over at extremely low wages. 5-10 years ago this wasn't even a thought for them. How many of us are at a place we think is fine, but next year we are in their shoes?

Another problem is not just pay, but qol items to. If one company has guarantee of 12 days off a month and another company has 10 days off the company providing 12 off a month has a higher cost due to more staffing needs. Contract language has a very high importance just like pay.

It would be good if we could get to a world of decent pay for first year guys, but defining good pay is different for everyone. One thing is certain - it's not right anyone starts at current pay at regionals. This shouldn't matter if you are new out of flight school or a Chuck Yeager. We all deserve a professional wage.

Why did you accept the job if you are so unhappy with the salary that goes along with it? Do you have nothing else going on for yourself? As long as chumps like you show up for the jobs then the low pay will continue. You are not the solution, you're the problem. You must be a liberal/socialists since you are so in favor of an Obama style spreading out the wealth. :cool:

One could also argue that members of labor unions tend to be liberal/socialists/democrats.

Really? It has nothing to do with 9/11, the economy tanking in 08, age 65 etc? I'd be more than happy to put my record up against yours any day (just kidding….I obviously have 3+ pink slips, no degree and multiple DUI's). So why are you still in the right seat of a regional 6 or 7 years? Must be a loser or Blue, Virgin etc would have hired you :rolleyes:

read as….get out of MY seat...

so there are circumstances beyond the control of an FO that keeps them as FO's more than 5 years, but not Captains? do tell…..

get out of YOUR seat…you said it….

If only you knew how ironic this post is....

my radar must be inop today :) How is it ironic?

Having a job at NWA/DAL because you worked at XJ is the very definition of entitlement. Newhires at 9E actually get a real DAL interview. How hard was that XJ interview? Plenty of my buddies with < 1000 hours got on, flew the "9" or the SAAB, and then watched the UNION give away their flow spots. But you are better. They didn't want a 4 year scale. They didn't want a bankruptcy contract to be better for 2 of 3 groups. 12 year guys didn't want to be put below 6 year guys. But your union let it happen. The same one that gave you your entitlement. The rest of us have to interview. I'll take that opportunity.

Sure, because you disagree. But take a look at the ratio of FO:CA pay at majors vs at regionals. Shouldn't the ratio be the same, regardless of whether you are single A or major league? ALPA says the pot is fixed, so, we need to decide how to distribute it. But, because some people don't like how I want to distribute it, I'm the socialist.

No but I'm God's gift to aviation. ;) Really, I'm just an FO with an opinion like the rest of you. But for some reason, again I'm the socialist, and I am the guy who hasn't had to fly with crappy FOs. It's totally different see - if a CA is trying to kill me I should sit on my hands, because HE signed for the plane, I didn't.

It's called leverage, the regionals have none. Our pot is smaller. But it's socialist to divide it differently than it currently is set up....

Simples, cencal, don't show up for your next trip, submit a resignation. I don't think you're a socialist, just not a realist. The Company and ALPA realized they could get F/Os to fly for a deep discount compared to the majors, you and thousands of others said, "ok, for a chance at T7 major captain, I accept these wages". Stop accepting, game over.

GF

You know, there were a lot of guys who had their NWA interviews canceled due to the flow at XJ, you know, so they could hand you your job communist style.

Dang man, you make me feel so depressed. Hopefully that $4-5000check I get every two weeks or so cheers me up. It sucks being a loser, sleeping in my own bed everyday, weekends and holidays off, spending time with the family...

Maybe I should start sending some apps out. Take my 12000 hours, 8000 hours of PIC turbine, 3 degrees with a 3.8gpa, no negatives on my record, and my military experience and start competing against you for a job. You wouldn't mind me competing against you for a job would you? Your 4500 hours and 0 pic time? (and why haven't you been hired elsewhere, we've had plenty of pilots leave without PIC time?)

Maybe you ought to be thankful there are a bunch lifers (perhaps thousands of them) that aren't applying for the jobs you want.

I haven't been hired because I suck. ;)

No there weren't. The NWA interview machine was up and running during the brief window where a few dozen XJ pilots flowed to NWA. PM me one pilot who "had their NWA interview cancelled due to the flow at XJ" You claim a lot?

Your perception couldn't be more skewed cencal. I don't know of a single pilot from XJ who got hired/flowed at NWA/DAL who felt entitled to the job. All the flows spend 14+ years at XJ and were perfectly content not going anywhere. Those who flowed were lucky and happened to be in the right place at the right time. Nothing else and none felt entitled.

And yet 2007 XJ hires had jobs at mainline waiting for them. Heck, more senior than that.

108 people. It's one thing to have not allowed the unwashed masses, ie Pinnacle pilots (XJ pilots hate us, because we are stupid?) participate in this flow as a result of the purchase... but to short change every new hire at XJ prior to July 1 2010 (the day that music died) out of their earned slot is not fathomable. If you earned it, so did any XJ new hire. I didn't, because I went to the idiot airline.

As an aside, my buddies tell me that from day 1 in class, they were told how bad everyone at Pinnacle was... And yet, in the other house, we never even talked about any other regional carrier in the course of training.

Back to topic: why is it such a foreign concept that new hires at regionals and FOs in general need to be compensated fairly? I ran the numbers once, but you dismiss it as socialism. I guess I'll just go with the boilerplate agree to disagree, because I don't see it that way. Even DALPA gets a fixed dollar amount from DAL, that the folks in charge of the union split up into various sections of the contract. As far as responsibility in the cockpit, CRM would say that both crewmembers are equally responsible for the outcome. Of course one person has to make the final decision, and the FO shouldn't question the decision unless he or she feels they are about to die or violate a reg or SOP. Dismissing the right seat responsibility strikes me as you assuming all your FOs are idiots who warm the seat next to you. I'm sure that you've flown with CAs at the regional level you scratch your head at...

Let's revisit this:
top scale FO vs 4 year CA (none of those at Endeavor anyway):: $39 FO, $69 CA (56.5%)

top scale FO vs top scale CA $39 FO, $87 CA (44.8%)

Both numbers are too low, but are 7 year FOs the liability to CAs that wet-commercials off the street are? Hardly....

If they truly want to encourage up-and-out, FO scale should be increased. If the the top scale FO became 12 years, at current top vs 4 %, that's $49.16....

Why did so many people, at 2011 JCBA rates, and pre-bankruptcy XJ rates, want to stay?

The regional model does not work with folks staying... Bottom line, they HAVE to move on. How do you make it happen?

I don't have the answers, but treating the guys stuck waiting to upgrade better might be a start. Encourage people to move on. Re-think pay scales at the regional level without knee-jerk reactions of "it's different, so it's socialist". Lastly, regional FOs are just as capable as the CAs, if not more. If you've been paying attention, many current 7+ year FOs WERE CAs....

Your FO pay rates are very close to Compass FO pay rates. I don't hear anyone at Compass complaining about it. I think your complaint is that you are stuck in the right seat. If there were 2-3 year upgrades happening at Endeavor that I doubt anyone would be complaining about FO pay. It's always been a seniority based system. There is no precedent to retool pay scales based upon time to upgrade. If someone wants to be a regional lifer than that is their prerogative. No one owes you their left seat. Are you really mad about the pay or the fact that you can't get into the right seat? I doubt you would be complaining about FO pay if you were a Captain.

Back to back posts that illustrate my point perfectly in this poll. The regional pilot group is split on this issue.

I think you meant left seat :P

But no, I'm not mad about not getting into the seat. There were a lot of closed door discussions and one Bloch award, coupled with a bankruptcy, that made left seat 9E an impossible venture. My buddies who are protected on the 900, and are senior, can get CA at a more junior number than I can, waiting for a 200 slot, since that's all I can get.

Was Compass designed with moving on in mind? Tha could explain the short upgrade. For a year, you could retire very richly here at Endeavor. Only when our pay got slashed in the fire sale did the top start gradually moving. Not all of them have finished their AirlineApps DAL app yet either.

The problem with regional lifers is they kill their companies with their extremely top heavy pay. Furloughing / losing planes doesn't help... It only gets rid of the guy making $25-$39 per hour...

I guess it doesn't really matter any more though, Endeavor's fate is sealed.

What happened to all this talk of CAs having more skin in the game? Seems like the fact that CAs are sitting right seat making $39 an hour wasn't lost on you...

How many people jumped the flow? EC was the only one, but he had someone in HR overlook he was an XJ pilot. All of the former employees/interns/FTIs of NWA, including myself, who had guaranteed interviews, were shot down due to the flow. NWA did not want to take any more than they absolutely had to from XJ, and it had always been that way.