Should Regional Airlines Flatten Pay Scales
 

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Everyone tends to agree that regional airline FO's should be paid more money at regional airlines, even airline management. But how far would the regional pilot group as a whole be willing to go? I suppose the answer to this question might have something to do with whether you believe a regional airline is a place you can make a career at or whether you believe its 'up and out' only.

Even if your regional airline had the best intentions towards its pilots, they don't get to set the ticket prices. They are constrained by the pot of money given to them by their parent airline. And your airline management doesn't even decide how the money is divided up, the pilots do.

Get a bigger pot of money you say from the parent airline? Be careful because if you ask for too much, other regional airlines will fly right in under the radar and underbid you because they can afford to do so with newly found pilot concession money. Some call this type of pilot affliction SJS.

So could you support a flattened pay scale where Captains and FO's make the same amount of money? Where only years of service pays higher? Where size of equipment doesn't matter and is determined by mainline pilot scope provisions? Potentially, it could look like this- a pay scale that starts at $40,000/yr and tops out in year 10 at $80,000/yr, regardless of seat. That's a $4000 per year raise.

What are some of the benefits you ask? What if you have to start over at a new regional airline because you want to move, or you hate the company, or the company goes out of business, etc... think about how much easier it would be to do just that. Right now, you are screwed, it's HARD to leave after the first year. And think about this, the company is now more on the hook to make the place better otherwise they will have to deal with FO attrition and all the training costs of that attrition when pilots decide airline B is slightly better. All of the sudden they have a vested interest in keeping pilots happy if they know pilots have other better options and do not have to take such a massive pay hit to keep them from leaving. Pilots become less of a slave to the company.

The poll question is "Should Regional Airlines Flatten Pay Scales".

Why should a Captain be paid the same as an FO? Maybe not such a large gap but more responsibility and accountability requires more bacon. Get over it Envoy is done and you'll probably have to make a lateral move.

I don't work for Envoy. And welcome to Airline Pilot Central forums.

Yep, and then do telephone interviews.

Didn't you do a similar poll last month?

Is that why captains get paid more? Then why do legacy first officers get paid more than regional captains? Technically the former has less responsibility than the latter.

I've done 6 previous polls prior to this one, although maybe similar, none of them asked this question.

I could see flattening out the scales for longevity (18 year scales?? hello lifers doing your negotiating), but not from seat to seat.

LOL at all the regional FOs that think they should be paid the same as a CA

Yup, very short sighted on their part. They are mostly made up of the entitlement generation so there ya have it.

I think this is what Bedford wants. He would like to raise FO salaries by taking from the top. He complains the union won't let him give the new hires a "raise".

Says the greedy old geezer who should have retired years ago but didn't because he was entitled to work longer and make more money and stagnate the industry. Get over yourself old man. I hope you're long gone before I get to the majors. I couldn't stand flying with your type. If I had a dollar every time an old person said "that d*** entitled generation"...it's getting really old, and every generation says the generation before them was entitled, and you sound ignorant.

To the OP, I think there should be a flattened out version. Not necessarily paid the same amount but bring up the pay for the FO. Captains do have more responsibly and are the boss...they should get paid more.

I'll be gone in 25 years. Keep hoping or delay your move up until then. :cool:

AKBound,

Looks like you have quite a wait there--25 years!

GF

Absolutely nothing wrong with that idea. I don't see why the losers that are not hireable anywhere else should keep being rewarded for their career failures at the expense of the newbies. The pot of money is only going to keep shrinking as the host airlines move to kill off the parasites like republic. Flattening of the payscales is all but inevitable.

Absolutely not! We earned our paycheck so pay your dues and earn yours.

No it's not. Also, a lot of the people I know who are choosing to stay at regionals for quality of life would never come on an anonymous message board and insult others for their career choices. You could be so much better than you choose to be.

I hate this phrase so much. Making 20k a year is not paying your dues.

What about those who have been furloughed or their airline closed shop and they had to start over? Didn't they already pay their dues? What about guys who want to come to an airline from the 91/135 world and have already flown crap equipment, or worked for crap companies, just to build hours, haven't they paid their dues?

All you people who use "pay your dues" as an excuse for low pay need a reality check.

Question is dumb, pretty much no one thinks Ca's and Fo's should be paid the same rate. However, regional divide between the two positions is higher then the major and higher then what Alpa claims their ideal monetary distribution should be.

Better would be, "Should there be SOME flattening of pay scales?". Ya probably.

But a better solution would be just to pressure for a reduction of the regional to major gap as a whole, preferably until FFD is no longer viable and we call the last 20 years a mulligan and move on.

Says the guy who just got hired at Sky West. Probably fresh out of the academy :D

apparently as of now 21 (24%) of the voters think so.....

I came from a long stretch in the Part 135 world. You wouldn't have and never will hear me complain about pay and benefits I agreed to work for. It is dues paying for the vast majority such as yourself. As for those furloughed from other airlines, I agree, they've paid their dues and deserve a spot above you on the F.O. list.

That's a huge problem. Regionals are simply not meant to be career destinations. The selfish lifers take an excessive piece of the pie. This is the primary cause of low entry level wages. The company sets the size of the pie, the senior pilots get to divy it up at the expense of the newbies.

If you're unhappy about this, quit the airline business today! If and when you get to your dream job, you're going to learn that the senior bubbas have it made.

Save yourself from a few decades of unhappiness. Quit now. Take the cubicle job.

The better answer should be, NO, we shouldn't flatten the pay scales. We should raise the pay for our regional partners.

Fact is, regionals are a career destination for many. A friend retired from NWA on DC-9s flying what...regional routes that are now at regionals.

GF

I dont think it should be even but defiantly flattened out. This will give you better earnings over the long haul. Earn more earlier in your career will allow for more compounding interest. We should all hope for 4 year caps(with cola increases and contract raises) but at reasonable wages. If we had it by the 2 or worst case 3 year of your career you would be making at least 50k no matter the seat you are better off in the long run even if you don't get that nice 85k at year 7.

FO pay should be roughly 70% of Captain Pay. That way both FO and Captain can eat and pay their bills....

but the Captain has more responsibility, and liability and puts their good name, record, and certificates on the line much more not to mention is supposed to be more experienced and knowledgeable in order to make decisions, with that "more experience and responsibility" should come higher pay.

"Lets pay everyone the same thing regardless of the job they do"
-First Officer Joe Stallin and Flight Attentant Karal Marks.

No but seriously, while it does suck to be a low paid fo especially when making lateral moves, ****ting on captains who spent the last 6-10 years in the right seat with that same ****ty pay busting their asses to earn their seats and higher pay is not right, and you're lowering everyone's top end right along with it. Lets be real, that isn't how capitalism works though I won't make the old Ayn Rand style "if the captain isn't paid more than the FO, what motivation does the FO have to be captain?" comment.

Why do regional CAs deserve 70k plus?

The question shouldn't be whether they subsidize FOs by taking a pay cut.

Regional CAs should be punished for not moving on.

Or we could continue to give them money: 401k 12.5% of the first 125% of yearly pay...

I don't think entitlement generation as much as I feel it's a lead weight of guys who screwed up so bad they are stuck in those seats.

As far as responsibility, violations come in pairs, and I've had to save many hapless lifers from getting ME violated.

There's just so much wrong with this kind of thinking.

Captains and FOs have the same training. They have the same type ratings. They have the same ATP certificates. The physical safety of both is equally at risk. Both have an equal responsibility for the safety of the passengers (FOs can kill everyone on board just the same as a captain can).

Captains put their good name and record on the line much more than FOs? How is that?? FOs put their records and certificates on the line just the same. So often both the captain AND the FO get fired and/or violated for incidents and accidents.

I realized a long time ago that captains do not earn their seats, as you suggest. If that was true, then how do you explain some regional captains upgrading in 18 months while others don't make it to the left seat for 8 years? Did the 8 year FO perform so poorly that it took him nearly 5 times longer to earn what the other guy did? It's simply a matter of luck and timing when someone is able to upgrade.

The pay scale disparity is completely asinine. You mentioned capitalism as if it's a factor; free market capitalism is no where to be found in unionized airline pilot pay scales. Companies hand over a certain amount of money to the whole pilot group, and unions divide up the money in a very artificial, anti free-market type of system.

There is no hope for you....you can't fix stupid.

He is clearly a case of someone who doesn't get it. Sounds like a "know it all" FO type. He will quickly figure it out once he upgrades and has to fly with inexperienced new hires. :rolleyes:

Yup, 7+ year FOs don't get it. Your spoon is more silver than ERAU grads. I'm sure you can look Mesaba guys in the face who had flow and not project superiority.

Many friends are career FOs thus far that had NWA jobs until XJ ALPA rolled over for the 108.

Says the guy who doesn't think RJ Captains deserve $70K per year. Keep up that entitlement attitude and keep blaming ALPA. Oh, and keep patting your self on the back for saving the day from when your CA's keep screwing up :rolleyes::rolleyes: And speaking of "superiority", most of your posts here reek of a superiority complex on your part. Just saying

Too bad Eastern Airlines isn't still around, you and Anderson could be first in line to cross...

Downgraded captains at 9E still make captain pay. So, Delta management thinks they should be paid the same, sometimes.

I was a rj captain for a lot of years. Skygod FO's did not make the list of things I miss about it.

Oh... you must be this guy...

http://www.blackframefame.com/wp-con...ja-gangsta.jpg

Or this guy; binky and all:

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=_Q5FdzHaOuE

Might want to retry that... "video doesn't exist".