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-   -   Idea to End the Whipsaw (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/83726-idea-end-whipsaw.html)

RamenNoodles 09-05-2014 08:25 AM

Idea to End the Whipsaw
 
After yesterday's devastating PSA announcement, I was thinking about how we can end this ridiculous whipsaw game. Here is what I came up with:

Each regional MEC needs to negotiate identical scope language in their respective CBA's. It should read something like this:

"All aircraft on property on date of signing shall not be operated by another United States flagged carrier. This includes transfers, lease returns, sales, and subleases.

Should any company aircraft enter service with any other US flagged carrier, 10 pilots per airframe shall be automatically transferred to the new operator and shall maintain his/her date of hire for all purposes including pay, longevity, bidding, vacation and sick accrual, and non revenue pass travel. These pilots shall be awarded a transfer by seniority bid.

This section shall remain intact through any and all force majeure events including bankruptcy, acts of God, fleet grounding, and cessation of company operations.

Example: NXXXAE is returned to the lessor and leased by PSA. The company shall open a bid to transfer 10 pilots to PSA, and those 10 pilots shall enter training at PSA at the next available class date and will maintain their original hire date for all purposes."

The scope section would then include all tail numbers operated by each carrier at date of signing.

Ideally, we would get all regionals under a single regional airline union but it could be done under existing conditions as long as the scope languages are identical.

Firsttimeflyer 09-05-2014 08:33 AM

What happens if they get aircraft after date of signing?

Why would a company agree to this knowing if they get used airplanes from another company they have to take pilots at a higher payscale when they could hire off the street.

What do you expect to give up to get protection like this?

RamenNoodles 09-05-2014 08:37 AM


Originally Posted by Firsttimeflyer (Post 1720353)
What happens if they get aircraft after date of signing?

Why would a company agree to this knowing if they get used airplanes from another company they have to take pilots at a higher payscale when they could hire off the street.

What do you expect to give up to get protection like this?

1) Add something to the scope section that includes any and all aircraft added after date of signing.

2) That's the whole point. It would prevent a company from screwing another pilot group by transferring used planes around. Many of pilots have been screwed by these tactics. It wouldn't matter if every single carrier had this language.

3) I would personally be willing to give up a lot for this. Its the ultimate career protection.

Don't take the language I wrote to be exactly what would show up in a contract. Obviously it would have to be tweaked and made better by the negotiating committees and lawyers. Its just a general idea.

rcfd13 09-05-2014 08:40 AM

Another easy way to end the whipsaw would be to let airlines operate like every other industry in the world where experience determines your pay scale and not years at a company. People are bottom feeder airlines are stuck there because they can't go back to being a $22/hour FO. If people could leave a company they were dissatisfied with those companies would fail.

Nevets 09-05-2014 08:40 AM

This is not a new idea. The ALPA FFD task group has had this as their main career protection mechanism.

At one point, XJT & CMR were thinking about doing this.

RamenNoodles 09-05-2014 08:44 AM


Originally Posted by Nevets (Post 1720361)
This is not a new idea. The ALPA FFD task group has had this as their main career protection mechanism.

At one point, XJT & CMR were thinking about doing this.

We need less talking and more action. I have absolutely no experience with serving on a union so I have no idea where to begin, but something like this needs to happen.

RamenNoodles 09-05-2014 08:46 AM


Originally Posted by rcfd13 (Post 1720359)
Another easy way to end the whipsaw would be to let airlines operate like every other industry in the world where experience determines your pay scale and not years at a company. People are bottom feeder airlines are stuck there because they can't go back to being a $22/hour FO. If people could leave a company they were dissatisfied with those companies would fail.

While I completely agree, this would be a paradigm shift in the industry and would take decades to accomplish. The addition of scope language is a much easier, short term protection.

Tjr0806 09-05-2014 09:05 AM

This would never work for wholly owned companies. They do not own the metal they fly.

Ray Red 09-05-2014 09:07 AM

What needs to happen is for Legacy MECs demand that all flying be done by mainline pilots. It would stop the whipsaw, they wouldn't have to spend future "negotiating capital" on scope and ALPA would collect more dues.

It is insane for for Legacy unions to just stand on the sidelines while their company is printing money all the while trying to get blood from their regional turnips. This wouldn't be happening if we were a real union.

JetRage 09-05-2014 09:16 AM


Originally Posted by RamenNoodles (Post 1720350)
After yesterday's devastating PSA announcement, I was thinking about how we can end this ridiculous whipsaw game. Here is what I came up with:

Each regional MEC needs to negotiate identical scope language in their respective CBA's. It should read something like this:

"All aircraft on property on date of signing shall not be operated by another United States flagged carrier. This includes transfers, lease returns, sales, and subleases.

Should any company aircraft enter service with any other US flagged carrier, 10 pilots per airframe shall be automatically transferred to the new operator and shall maintain his/her date of hire for all purposes including pay, longevity, bidding, vacation and sick accrual, and non revenue pass travel. These pilots shall be awarded a transfer by seniority bid.

This section shall remain intact through any and all force majeure events including bankruptcy, acts of God, fleet grounding, and cessation of company operations.

Example: NXXXAE is returned to the lessor and leased by PSA. The company shall open a bid to transfer 10 pilots to PSA, and those 10 pilots shall enter training at PSA at the next available class date and will maintain their original hire date for all purposes."

The scope section would then include all tail numbers operated by each carrier at date of signing.

Ideally, we would get all regionals under a single regional airline union but it could be done under existing conditions as long as the scope languages are identical.

YES, YES, YES. Or better yet, bring in some legal/business experts to do your contract negotiations instead of union negotiating committees made up of line pilots. At minimum it would force the company to pay each line holder a buyout if equipment is moved off property.


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