The Regional Poverty Churn
 

There has been increased media coverage lately of the chasm between QOL/pay at majors vs regionals. I don't think it even covers the whole story or goes far enough, but I think there's also a significant aspect of regional life that has been overlooked - let's call it "regional churn".

There's almost no point to life as a regional FO. Yep, that's a sobering claim. The primary point is to spend as little time as possible as a regional FO in order to upgrade, gain turbine PIC and move on to a major... or skip the upgrade and catch a rare direct opportunity. Stagnation as a regional FO is a career death sentence and likely costs a large percentage of future earnings, opportunity to save for retirement, etc. $20-$40/hr does not pay many bills.

I can think of dozens of FOs at my airline who are on their 2nd, 3rd or even 4th regional airline, through stagnation or the company shutting down. I can think of more who have left this regional for another one, weighing the pros and cons of yet another year at $20/hr and once again slotting in at the bottom of a seniority list.

From management's perspective, there's nothing wrong with this. It keeps labor cheap and the churn occurs cyclically with new contracts, adding or dropping aircraft, etc. Just business...

From the prospective of the profession, this has caused many high quality pilots to leave the industry all together and has significantly damaged the careers of many many others.

Thoughts and comments? How does this become a story the media can latch on to in a way that can benefit us all?

We should stand up against the companies and vote NO on the crappy contracts they offer....wait we have done that, but there is the problem of the FOs that leave to another airline, sucking up first year pay and chasing the quick upgrade.
As long ad there are places with opportunities to upgrade quickly and get out, the cycle will continue.
Those who have held strong will be downsized or eliminated.
It has happened before, it is happening a lot right now, and I'd put money on it that it will happen again.
I just hope too many people view regional pilots like I view the fast food workers who want $15 an hour to flip burgers.

The Regional Poverty Churn
 

You guys are sounding like progressives. Most everyone I met in my time in the regionals were die hard conservatives where the market place dictated wages , entrepreneurs like Bedford took the risk in starting the business therefore they should get the reward. you know like in Atlas Shrugged. Quit the whinning, nothing is gonna change you are all pawns in a career you freely chose. Deregulation has seen to that. Sorry to be so pessimistic but I got out of the regionals and make descent money teaching corporate guys at one of the big three flight training centers. I wake up in my own bed everyday an i do not miss the lifestyle and headache one bit. BTW I am a proud progressive living in the two Americas.

The regional model functions EXACTLY the way it is supposed to!

NOBODY cares about the "profession" at the regional level, not management, not unions, not the government.

Management is happy as long as planes fly, costs are low, and nobody crashes.

Government is happy as long as ticket prices are low and nobody crashes.

Unions are happy as long as their REAL constituents (wide-body CA's) don't have to take pay cuts to subsidize regional pilots.

The underlying enabler of all this is the longevity pay scale...naive people are willing to come to work for poverty wages (or even migrant farm worker wages) on the premise that a few years down the road they'll be making $70K and before long $100K. Of course management uses whipsaw, BK, COMAIR, etc to shuffle airplanes around, ensuring that anyone pursuing a regional "career" will start over at $20K every few years. The longevity scale is the bait and switch of this con that keeps the suckers coming back again and again!

The only possible way regional pilots "might" have a shot at mitigating this issue is to collectively reject the longevity scale and set an industry standard pay for each equipment/seat. Don't get me wrong, there would still be seniority since that would determine equipment, upgrades, schedule, vacation, etc. But having a flat payscale would remove the incentive to move planes (and pilots) between regionals...that would just incur training costs with no savings on pilot pay. The challenge of course would be implementing this as managers and senior lifer CA's would resist since you'd have to "lop off" the high end of the pay scale to balance raising the low end. It would also have to be coordinated industry-wide, which would be real hard with certain pilot groups signing decades-long contracts which essentially screws future pilots who are still in grade school.

Regionals are not a game you can win, or even break even...it's rigged heavily in the house's favor. If you have independent financial means, a regional job might provide a fun hobby and flexible life-style while giving the appearance of being a productive member of society.

All valid points. It's too bad the flying public is ok with outsourced metal and that it's legal for 6+ different regionals to all fly "Delta" or "American" routes. Getting all of that flying back into the majors would be a step in the right direction.

But the people who make those calls have no incentive to do that...quite the opposite in fact. Wish in one hand, poop in the other and see which one fills up first.

Great points Rick. The regional airline model is a triumph of labor market ripoff, a shockingly successful racket with the primary goal of moving money out of the hands of ordinary pilot-worker into the hands of those who are more aggressive and cunning. It would really be nice to see an end to it during our lifetimes.

Clearly the regional model is beneficial to the major airlines but it doesn't have to be. It will only be if you sit here angrily on your computer and type hateful things about people who want it changed. So, either you sit on your hand full of poop or spend your free time trying to ensure better lives for people who follow you into this profession. Seeing as most pilots are generally egocentric and ignorant, they would rather sit in their own crap until they get theirs.

Yaaaaaaaawnnnnn

It took a hell of a lot more than things like internet posts and rants to change how businesses treated workers during the industrial revolution. It's going to take a hell of a lot more during the outsourcing revolution.

Agreed. Did you know that unionization has dropped from 33% of all labor during the 70s to less than 10% today? I think it's around 6% today.

Unfortunately, labor will always lose to the bottom dollar and until the middle class realizes this, things will continue to get worse until they are nearly unrecoverable.

You'll get sick of that teaching crap pretty quickly my friend. I got [deleted] off at the regional I worked for and quit to do the same thing you did. Now I regret it.

Enjoy the corporate greed at your new gig. It's no different.

As for being a proud progressive- Congratulations.

One seniority list.

Never going to happen. Such a move would need to be spearheaded my Legacy carrier pilots. Can you imagine what it would take for a major pilot to sign off on the idea of having a lifelong regional pilot jump them on their own seniority list?

One longevity list. Bottom of the list for bidding schedules and vacation, but longevity for pay. Get paid for the experience you bring. Since people like to compare pilots to doctors, the AMA spells out the strict requirements of newhire Doctors that companies must hire. Make it the same. Companies can only go so long by hiring bottom barrel for experience before they are forced to hire guys throughout the experience spectrum. This pill would have been easiest to swallow for the legacies in 2010-2013 when virtually every pilot was topped at the 12 yr scale anyway.

But alas it'll never happen.

Agreed. I should have stipulated one seniority list for us regional guys/gals.

Fixed it for ya

Agree. And if that "one of the big three" is FSI, you're a pawn. My position as a PM was eliminated and I was sent to teach classes no one really wanted. Center manager can change your life on a whim. I was there six years and recently left for a regional to become current again. Could not see another 25 years of 12 hour days (8 in ground school and 4 in the sim) seven days a week. Meanwhile, my corporate contacts (most recently a Fortune 10 company) have contacted me personally to provide them with onsite training, which I conduct at reasonable - not exorbitant - prices. Nice as a regional salary subsidy.

The major airlines haven't had to deal with market forces impacting pilot wages in any real way, and that's due to the non-portability of our labor due to the union seniority system. In most other skilled professions, one can switch companies and be compensated based on experience. Thus, the major airlines haven't been forced to adjust wages to keep around their best and most experienced pilots. Pilots at the regionals have been hamstrung from leaving for better employers due to being forced to start over at first year pay. Market forces have not been in play to eliminate failing businesses that treat their employees poorly. Couple that with antiquated bankruptcy and union laws, and the airlines haven't had to deal with true market forces in a long time.

You CLEARLY haven't read Atlas Shrugged, or if you have you didn't comprehend it. One of Ayn Rand's primary philosophies was that NO ONE should work for free, be a slave to any other man, and should be compensated fairly for their labor. In the book, the protagonist Dagny Taggert does everything in her power to REWARD her best employees, treat them well, and promote them. The airlines, and corporate America as a whole, have forgotten that the employees ARE the company.

If you're going to malign something, I suggest you know what the hell you're talking about first, rather then regurgitating some tired liberal propaganda that you were fed.

The public doesn't care about the plight of the regional pilot, they just want a cheap ticket and not die in the process.

If the regional flying goes back to the majors, what are you going to do with all the regional pilots, seeing as more than a few are not qualified for a major and/or not major material?

Here is the kind of doctor that regional pilots think they are the equivalent of: http://www.onlinecollege.org/wp-cont...oc-Surgeon.jpg

Here is the kind of doctor that most major airline pilots and the general public think regional pilots are the equivalent of: http://www.bricksandbloks.com/wp-con...Screenshot.png

Let's have a look at the bigger picture.

Everything that is happening today at the regional level is coming to the majors too. Collectively since you are willing to accept poor treatment now, you are going to have to accept it later as well. They already know you will.

You will never have what the current crop of major airline pilots have. They never had to accept the sub standard treatment many regional pilot groups are ok with today. They never had to chase a carrot like you do. Heck, many of them never even worked at a regional. They left the military and were welcomed to the club with open arms.

You are not a member of the club. If you are willing to chase the carrot now, you are going to have to chase it forever.

So you're saying it's a hopeless endeavor and we should all just shut up and color?

7 Reasons You Should NOT Become a Pilot - Aviation - About.com

Those individuals should be flushed out of the flying industry. Flying is a terribly unforgiving endeavor. Not everyone belongs in the cockpit simply because they can fog a mirror.

How about not taking the job if you aren't happy with the compensation package?

I don't think people are saying its a hopeless endeavor or to give up. I hate to say it this way the system is the way it is. People can talk about one seniority list, higher pay and a pilot shortage all they want. In the end none, I mean none of it will change or even become close to what it should be. Sadly the only people that care about the plight of pilots are pilots. The public doesn't care, the union doesn't care and sadly even most pilots don't care (apathy at this point). Accept the crap sandwich for what it is... it will never be filet mignon, except for a small percentage of pilots.

This...as the old joke goes. "Will you have sex with for a million dollars?" "Yes, then how 'bout for 10 bucks?" Girl answers, "what kind of girl do you think I am?" Punch line, "we already established that, it's now about the price". RJ pilots have said they"ll fly for these wages, why should companies pay more just to fly a bigger plane?

GF

But...... he LOVES to fly.

UPS has a single pay scale. Seems to work good for them.

I guess you never heard of the B scale. The whole concept is that you accept a lower pay scale as a "condition of employment." Back in the early '90s we accepted the B-scale (Thank you, APA!) as a condition of employment to gain access to that coveted Major Airline job.

It is amazing to me how many people have conveniently forgotten the fact that we went to work at half of the pay rate of those who held the same position but had gotten hired a year or two earlier.

That was the sacrifice that was required to grab the golden ring.

Great idea, but there are plenty of pilots who will suffer in the short term in order to grab that golden ring.

Then those people should not be flying the passengers of a major airline at any company, including the regionals. :eek:

Rickair, stated it best, add to that a few more complexities of the regional world that all add up to a stacked house no win (in the short term /mid term for pilots) is the fact that the system knows that it will always have an ample supply of pilots ready to play the game, and it's not just the airlines, anyone out there that actually thinks that the unions actually care about the pilots at the regional level need to quit drinking that cool aide :) they play the regional game as a test ground for the majors just like the majors do, nothing wrong with either as long as you realize that's what they are doing, a great model to look at would be minor league base ball, the only way pay will ever change is supply and demand, when young people realize that they are far better off getting that engineering degree then becoming a pilot. If your a new FO us the system just like it uses you, do your time and move on, the regionals are a great stepping stone not just for the majors but also 135 (yes 135) and cooperate world, both of which you will make more $ my story, I have to play the regional game to get enough turbine time to be insurable for a company that I can fly seasonal with. Once I get that the regional world has served its purpose for me, so trust me guys, if your smart enough to fly in the regional world your smart enough to get a job in the real world probably making four times the income :)

Spot on, but there in lies the problem. Everyone goes to a regional thinking they are going to get their time and move on. People trying to get enough time to move on. The airlines know it and the pilots know it. The majors pay the feeders bills, so as long as the majors are stacked with resumes and pilots it doesn't matter what happens at the regional level. The regionals are literally like pilot mills...

Yep rnav, and here's another little secret that I've noticed nobody ever mentions here, most airline pilots are lazy :) let's face it in the scope of what can be considered hard work being an airline pilot can hardly classify as that, that's part of the appeal, especially when it comes to why anyone wants to fly at the major level, let's face it being an airline pilot is the best part time job in the world, my prior life I worked hard, real hard, but the fruits of my labor was I was able to retire at 49 (non union, non government) I did it on my own, with that hard work I can now afford the regional game as a stepping stone, but if I was one of the many young guys or girls that made the mistake of getting $100 to $150 k in debt no way I'd suffer through the process, my advice is if you have that kind of debt, go get a real job, work real hard and pay it off, I can't believe how many times I've read here that someone has that debt and is sticking it out because that's what there education was in ! Screw that that makes no since ! But again the system knows that mentally and physically pilots arnt going to walk away, they will complain all day, but they will show up to wrk at what ever pay, because it beats a real 9 to 5 job at Home Depot ! Ok let the flogging begine on my comment lol

Exactly correct. Even at the rate the majors are hiring now and in the near future, the fact of the matter is NOT EVERYONE will land a job at a Major airline. Do the math. Compare the number of ATPs in the U.S. and the number of Major Airline jobs.

You'd better have an alternative plan if the dream doesn't pan out.

You hit the nail on the head, Brother!

Or as I've been told, "You Part 121 pilots are used to everything being done for you." I had to admit, he was right.

A seasonal flying job that you can make over $400,000??????

Pressure congress and continue raising awareness of the fact that your not flying on the airline your ticket states even though the paint job is the same and most of the planes even say ___ major airline on the registration.
If enough pressure is brought then maybe the flying will be brought in or cut the regionals loose and let them compete for the markets.


Whats disgusting is this should have never happened yet has been allowed to continue with the blessing of mainline pilot groups.

Very small chance anything will change as long as planes move.

As far as mainline taking regional flying back....

I don't think mainliners are chomping at the bit to fly into CMX,MKG,FWA,YUM,BRO,ORF, et. al.

Where will applicants get their 121 PIC Turbine then?

Mainline would have to train new-hires due to retirement AND new-hires to take on regional flying. (And the additional logistics: ground handlers, MX, Dispatch, HR, et. al.).

Flying these regional destinations in a Boeing regional aircraft at mainline would be nice, but I concede the poop hand will fill first.

Only pilots know the difference between an ERJ175 and a mainline aircraft. Joe public can't tell the difference. Nor do they care. They just care about $$$.

The only reason the government enacted the 1500 rule was because metal was bent. Did it raise pay? NOPE. Fatigue and training became the focus, not how low pilots were paid. Sadly pilots are paid in "sunsets" from "the best office view" and not real dollars. Until pilots realize a liveable wage trumps any job you love because its fun there will never be a pilot shortage.