Lol not if you buy into a large portion of posters in this section lol, notice I didn't say pilots, not sure how many of the loud complainers are actual pilots lol, there has always and will always be a surplus of pilots, competition is good, ever notice that the main entities that always profess they have access to the future pilot shortage crystal ball are always flight schools ? Buy a December copy of plane and pilot for every year going back 40 years and find the copy that says we are going to have a pilot surplus 😃 again the system has been the same for 30 plus years, the pilots that do the best the quickest are the ones that learn to play the game the fastest, time and time again you hear of the fed-x guy that did maybe 3-4years at a regional, hardly ever meet or hear from a mainline guy that did 15 years at the regionals

The only way to say there was a surplus 20 years ago is to count all the pilots on furlough. Also, the mins to get hired back then to fly a metroliner, banderante or some other ragged out TP were higher than the ATP rule today.

Yeah, sorry you've been a FO for a couple years.

They were way higher to fly a Navajo !

The mainline jobs that were outsourced to the regionals now pay $0. That's where the union failed. The pay rates now at the regionals are a symptom of this problem.

"Yeah, sorry you've been a FO for a couple years"


Im not complaining nor do I have any sense of entitlement. This is career number 2 for me and Im probably a little further along in life than you're assuming. Thanks for your sympathy though.

How many majors today have pilots on furlough? That is my point. Pilots are in demand.
The majors may be not feeling it because they have about 18,000 applicants, but down here at the regionals y'all it's a different story.

At ease and carry on!

I don't think there was ever a time where regional FO's were high paid. Low regional FO pay is nothing new. One difference now is there are lots of six figure RJ Captains. That was unheard of not too long ago.

In terms of purchasing power, they were making more in the past. At 9E, we are back to the old 2004 XJ rates. Against a basket of commodities, $100K today, is equivalent to about $40K in 1990's pay.

Sky pilot, same here, a retirement income is what's alowing me to make this step, I was one of those guys 20 years ago that decided to go a different route, well wife leaving me with the kids helped lol but in the end it worked out just fine,

I connected with this post akselddriver, I am a new 22 YO college graduate and paid for my PPL out of MY pocket working for $9 hr three days a week. Now Im hitting the airways with my training and hope to be done by February then it's those next 1200 hours to gain before ATP.. BUT I'm willing to do the work and time for my YEARS ahead of what I hope to be a long and progressive career.

That's wrong. $40,000 in 1990 is equivalent to $74,00 today.

This is the union seniority system, the way it works. It sucks that the 8 year FO has to start over at year 1 pay at a different airline. The get in line system isn't going to change while you are still unionized.

Your best bet is to change smaller things within the system to make it more palatable. For example, would we even be having this discussion if year 1 pay was $50K? How do we get to that? Flattening of the payscales. No difference in pay (or slight) for a Captain and FO. Only longevity pays higher. Now airlines are motivated to make it a better place. They have to spend all the money on training etc.. only to have the FO bail after 1 year to airline B because it is slightly better. Airline B is doing a better job than airline A and its worth it to the FO to make a move because his pay will still be livable.

Another change in addition to flattening the scales is to keep your longevity pay while changing airlines. You still go to the bottom of the list seniority number wise, but your pay is not tied to your seniority number. I don't know how you get airlines to agree to this or what the logistics of how other unionized organizations do it.

But again, there are pluses and minus's to the union system. My wife recently changed jobs in the medical field. She was hired at a different hospital after 15 years at another hospital. She got a 3% raise to make the move, didn't have to start over. Sounds really good, but then again she is not afforded any true seniority, if there are layoffs she is probably the first to go because she is paid the most out of all her peers who do basically the same job but are younger and less experienced.

You won't.

This is how most of the non-collective bargaining world works...including business aviation.

Your experience (and compensation level) is transportable, but there's not the protections afforded by a labor union.

20 years ago, you didn't see "commuter" airline pilots in their 40s with 15+ years of seniority and 5000-10,000 hours of flight time. You didn't have two recessions, an oil crisis, and a change in the retirement age working against them getting "real" jobs.

Do you propose that all of these RJ pilots should have just put of their lives on hold for a decade, hoping for a chance to grasp the brass ring?

Rather than pilots expecting an industry to adapt to their lifestyle, I see pilots desperately trying to cope with a changing industry that becomes more and more slanted toward the top 1% every day. Those who came before us who pulled up the ladder as soon as they got in, only to taunt us who got left behind while feeding us scraps.

Based on the CPI, yeah, I said a basket of commodities. It takes years for actual price inflation to make its way through the CPI due to how its weighted, and calculated. Also, the BLS isn't anywhere near truthful.

I question your situational awareness.
I know many 29-31 year old pilots that are newly minted regional FOs with ten years of flying under their belt from instruction to charter to freight to finally the regionals thanks to the recession.

I've personaly moved sixteen times since I left home when I was 18 chasing this nut.

I'd wager this generation of pilots have sob stories to go toe to toe with the Entitlement (social security, Medicare,) generation.

Capt. tony that's kind of a cop out and you know it, this country has always been entering or exiting some sort of disaster, for every 8 to 15 year regional guy out there, they had there shot at a major at one point or another, they just didn't take the shot, maybe they were waiting for the fed-x chief pilot to jump seat on there flight to empress him enough to get that fast track shot, maybe, but usually they just got to comfortable for to long, some tried and failed then came back

Boo hoo.

If you're just getting to a regional by your 30's you started about a decade later than most. No one's problem but their own. I had 1900 TT/ATP when I hit a regional at age 24, and there were quite a few guys younger than me in my class. Also had a 4 year degree. Those younger than me had a 2-year or no degree, then got their 4 year while at the regionals. Really smart way to go.

Spot on :)

See this is where you passed up a perfect opportunity not to sound like another young entitlement minded pilot :) maybe those same pilots that had to come to the regionals because of the bad economy should be thanking the regional for hiring them and giving them a job, see that's what the older generations do, they don't complane about somebody giving them a job 😃 just sayin ...

Boo frikken hoo.

Pilots have been going through that same crap for decades upon decades in search of making it in this career.

I think you and some others should be evaluating your situational awareness.

Hate to break it to you (and some other's in this thread) but you are not special, and not everybody wins.

That was kind of his point.

Irony.

Why do WE in OUR industry have the seniority system that currently exists? This is not a rhetorical question. I am curious as to how this system came to be and why it has been allowed to continue.

How else, do you propose, we get assigned trips or decide who upgrades and when?

Lottery.

That would be interesting.

http://www.myhungergames.com/wp-cont...2011/11/16.jpg

May the upgrade be ever in your favor...

This will receive instant criticism, but I'm just thinking out loud. Suppose there was a metric that took into account individual pilot performance. Things like late shows, no-shows, pilot-induced delays, passenger feedback, coworker feedback (i.e. has every other pilot put you on their "do not fly with" list?), track record of careful or careless fuel consumption, etc. And combine that to some extent with the current seniority system.

If there was a fair way to quantifiably collate each pilot's performance, we could bring merit-based based progression to this profession instead of having Joe Pilot upgrade before you just because his date of birth was before yours.

Just thinking out loud.

In a career where you only interact with management once a year, that would be incredibly political and honestly unfair. So, a pilot that bids or is awarded afternoon flying should be punished for his on time and fuel consumption because of any number of issues (thunderstorms, rolling delays, speed restrictions or reroutes) into major hubs? And since we are talking about stratification for upgrade based on metrics, are you going to cause a stink because your captain is late or wants to fly at a less fuel efficient speed? Or maybe you're going to start snapping at ATC when they keep you lower than filed.

Then you'd have to have someone to manage this merit system. Collecting data on each pilot and how they fly...not taking into consideration any subjective variables that have caused this behavior. You flew fast because you're trying to beat a thunderstorm to the field so you don't have to divert? Too bad, you clearly aren't fuel conscious. I don't want a computer program second guessing every tiny decision I make as good or bad without any input on why I did it.

What if we had 2 seniority numbers? Let's say an airline seniority number and a career seniority. The airline seniority is used for bidding / upgrade / base assignment, etc. and the career seniority is used for pay. I think that is my biggest heartache with the current seniority system is that a pilot who moves loses the gains in pay they've made. Or maybe something like a category of pilot:

Cat A: 1500 - 3000
Cat B: 3001- 5000
Cat C: 5001- 9000
Cat D: 9001 - 15000
Cat E: 15001 - Ohly crap why are you still flying!

If you're a Cat E pilot and move from one airline to another airline you are automatically capped at the highest FO payscale.

Why would any airline hire a pilot that would come in at, for example, 4th year longevity pay when they could just as easily hire someone who would come in at 1st year pay?

Voluntarily, they would not. But why is this the only "professional" industry allowed to operate this way? Can you name another profession where your experience does not count when you move employers?

Its not.

You've got nearly a century of past practice and the Railway Labor Act standing between what you and what you desire, and answers (or at least insight) to that which you seek can be found in Ernie Gann's "Fate is the Hunter". If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it.

I also suggest looking into a career in business aviation, as the "portability" of one's experience and compensation from employer to employer seems like something that might interest you relative to a 'traditional' seniority-driven airline career.

I'll bit, name the other industry that requires a new employer to base there pay to an employee based upon there longevity in the career ?

I just ordered the book. Thanks for that.

I "understand" the history or more to say I recognize that this is the accepted norm, but it is ridiculous and I do not understand the rationale behind it. Just to say, "That's the way its always been" is not good enough. My point being is that if this practice was implemented then it can be unimplemented (not even sure it that's a word).
I just read the RLA (The Railway Labor Act) and it says nothing about experience not counting. The RLA as I understand it is all about arbitration, mediation, and unions. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about an industry standard that seems to be accepted without question. Why do [/B]we[/B] allow this to happen? I guess that is my question: Why?

Spot on, but the unions would never go for this, ranking employees for there longevity vrs there actual productivity has been a union survival mechanism for over 100 years, guarantees them Union dues, and they really love them dues :)

Doctor
Lawyer
Accountant
CEO
CFO
COO
Any Manager / Supervisor

Let's say you get a DUI. You have 2 lawyers to choose from. Lawyer A finished law school last week and is in the process of hanging his law degree on his wall when you walk in for your consultation. Lawyer B has just opened his new office but has 20 years of experience and a proven record of winning DUI cases. Who do you think you are going to pay more for their services? Do you think you will pay Lawyer B the same as Lawyer A because he is in a new office?

The answer is obviously NO!

Compensation for experience, is far different the compensation for longevity, one gains experience through interaction with there chosen profession, the other gains longevity by just showing up, again your confusing the two, in all your examples show me a business that is required to pay someone a higher wage just for being at job x some x amount of years, the professions you've listed above everyone of them get compensation from a perspective employer because that employer chooses to compensate for there experience, not longevity

Like I said, there is literally no way to fairly judge any pilot based on those metrics.

QUOTE=Aksleddriver;1743773]Compensation for experience, is far different the compensation for longevity, one gains experience through interaction with there chosen profession, the other gains longevity by just showing up, again your confusing the two, in all your examples show me a business that is required to pay someone a higher wage just for being at job x some x amount of years, the professions you've listed above everyone of them get compensation from a perspective employer because that employer chooses to compensate for there experience, not longevity[/QUOTE]

I am not talking about longevity. I AM talking about experience. Not sure what you are missing.
I am not being malicious with this question, but are you a pilot? More specifically, do you fly for an airline?

I'm not sure you understand what "collective bargaining" entails.

I am not talking about longevity. I AM talking about experience. Not sure what you are missing.
I am not being malicious with this question, but are you a pilot? More specifically, do you fly for an airline?[/QUOTE]

Yes