This will make you mad!
 

I like your response and citing of a study supporting your rebuttal. Good job.

This will Pi$$ you off!
 

It's spot on

This will Pi$$ you off!
 

I think he nailed it.

The author, an aviation industry consulting, isn't wrong.

He also isn't "right".

One point he makes is "equitable distribution of pay across its member base." That's not incredibly unreasonable. I'm biased at the bottom the same way somebody at the top would be, but should a regional FO make $20,000 while a widebody Captain pulls in $250,000? Surely there should be improved pay as one progresses through their career, but that discrepancy is pretty extreme.

The popular opinion is that pay should just be raised for everyone. That's fine and well and I don't know a pilot who'd disagree, but while it's realistic on a very small scale dramatic pay increases can't be given to everybody at once. So where should we start, at the top or at the bottom? I have my opinion, a 777 Captain will have his.

I somewhat agree with his main point in these two paragraphs:

While Moak tells many half-truths with regard to numbers, he forgets to mention a truism: It is his union and other labor organizations that collectively bargain for the pay and work rules at the nation’s regional airlines.

ALPA talks about creating a level playing field without referencing the union’s own role in determining pay and benefits at the regional level. A race to the bottom has been a part of organized labor’s DNA for decades, in part because low labor rates at regional carriers cross-subsidize the higher rates paid at the mainline airlines.



It's not the unions fault that is creating a pilot shortage though..it's the fat-cats at Delta, United, and American. Having ALPA represent the regionals and the majors they have agreements with is a contradiction in itself. A-scale, B-scale. If you were to make them one then there would be no regionals..which would be a good thing.

While ALPA's intention wasn't to keep commuter pay low, the cause and effect of their policies certainly did.

The biggest pill to swallow for the commuters is how little they are paid relative to their cockpit companions. At mainline carriers, F/Os top out at 70% of CA wages, where as at the commuters you're lucky to hit 40%. A select few come close to 50%.

Those in charge of the negotiations at the commuters have placed a far higher amount of money in the hands of the "senior Captains". If F/Os started at $25/hr but went to $70/hr you wouldn't see such a big campaign about wages. Most will make only about $40,000 a year waiting for their upgrade.

"The pie is only so big" they say...unless you are C-level management, then they simply bake more pie.

Conveniently overlooked by the author (an aviation industry consultant) is the basic economic reality that major airlines have squeezed the margins of their regional capacity lift partners, so that even IF the regional partners wanted to increase pilot compensation as a way to increase recruiting/retention in accordance with Econ 101 theory...they simply cannot afford to as the mainline isn't going to increase the partner's fee in order for the partner to hire and retain their pilot workforce.

Is that the fault of ALPA National, or ALPA Local pilots at each given airline that ratify CBAs containing such <I hate this effing word> "inequality"?

Yes but it took two parties to agree to those terms.

The regional model is very simple. They are a staffing agency.

As it is, the lower tier companies are having zero issues attracting pilots because of the fast upgrades and career progression. That is all anyone wants out of the regionals, in the end, except for the top x% lifers.

Who changed my header?

Definitely a local issue. ALPA National should have guidelines against it, but they can't tell the individual groups how to split up the money.

I don't believe it's just a local issue but an industry culture issue. Additionally, I think the current seniority system we operate under is detrimental to every pilot in the industry because it prohibits movement from one carrier to the next. The system works in the favor of management. I cannot think of any other profession where experience is not considered when calculating compensation. If I could argue for one thing it would be a single seniority system across the regional airline industry.

There is no incentive for regional airlines to retain individuals. In fact if we look at Envoy and the 2650 pilots (APC numbers) currently on the payroll, what incentive does AAG management have to keep any of them? If AAG folds Envoy and puts the 2650 pilots on the street I would speculate many would move to another carrier starting at first year pay. AAG contracts out to the lowest bidder and the same pilot that was a 15 year captain making $99 an hour is now a 1st year FO making $22 without the medical / 401K / Dental / etc. This system has to change. There needs to be an incentive for the company to want to keep their pilots and the industry should pay for experienced professionals not some arbitrary date of hire.

Regarding ALPA contributing to the pilot shortage, I think that is nonsense. There is no pilot shortage. I do however hold the opinion that ALPA does not represent the interests of the regional pilot. There is a direct conflict of interest with regard to compensation for pilots at a Major and pilots at a Regional. If the companies contracting out the flying (Delta, United, American) have to pay more for regional pilot labor, then there is less money available for Major pilot labor. I think its that simple and that is why I don't believe ALPA has the regional pilot's best interest in mind (at least monetarily).

I am not sure what the fix is for the problems in OUR industry, but I am certain a good starting point would be the seniority list.

How do we rally every regional pilot group to get behind that? Envoy guys seem like a logical place to start. Others will be supportive, some will be resistant - again, the senior Captains and lifers at non-Envoy regionals. You sort of run into the same problem, guys at the top not willing to give up for guys at the bottom. Logistically and legally it seems like a big nightmare.

The most expeditious way to spearhead it might be an act of legislation, but how do pilots convince Congress, especially while airline management cries bloody murder?

I don't know the answer. Perhaps the first step would be to identify whether or not the majority of regional pilots would be interested in pushing for one seniority list. If the results of whatever polling metric used indicate a positive response then I would imagine a representative group could be formed to hash out the details.

So why do Virgin America and Skywest have pay scales so similar to their unionized counterparts?

Im not sure I understand your question, but I would imagine because there is an industry standard; albeit a poor one at the regional level.

Sky pilot your solution has on one very big flaw to it, all regionals arnt owned by one entity, so if I'm company x and I do all the right things, hire the right pilots, invest in proper training, pay fairly, basically put out a superior product, why should I want to allow someone that was trained and worked at company y to be able to come in and be on a higher seniority posisitions, then the guy I envested in from day one ? Especially if company y went out of business because of bad disicions ?

I always listen the industrial opinions of an obese former male fight attendant. Btw nice fact checking on the claim that ATP minimums changed from 250 hrs to 1500 hrs Mr MIT.

I think you are absolutely right. There is not an airline out there that wants seniority to carry over from one carrier to the next but it has nothing to do with performance metrics of company x vs company y. It has everything to do with money. I won't rehash the example I gave up top, but I believe that there are going to be a lot of Envoy pilots looking for an alternative airline in the near future. I think it is an absolute travesty that a pilot with 7,8,9 or more years of experience will be paid at a first year rate. It makes no sense.

More to your point if you are an airline doing the right things, your airline will not have a mass exodus of pilots and your airline will attract quality people. Additionally, if I as a pilot move from one company to another I have to attend and pass the company's FAA approved training syllabus. I cannot simply move from one company to another and start flying their airplanes. For every training event I attend I am essentially putting my certificate on the line. I think if you ask the majority of pilots, they would prefer to avoid extra jeopardy events if they can. In other words, most pilots will not move to another company on a whim.

It is my contention that every other industry pays for quality / experienced professionals. Could you imagine telling a surgeon with countless procedures performed on his resume that he / she has to start over because she moved to a different hospital. Ridiculous!
I don't know why this industry is any different. Maybe 3 decades ago it made sense, but it makes no sense today.

So much fail in that article.

No fact checking...like the ATP.

No mention that you could get hired with 190 hours before the 1500 hour rule, and the exceptions that rule allows.

The thousands upon thousands of qualified individuals who could fly at a 121 regional carrier but choose a better QOL at corporate, 135, cargo etc jobs...or left aviation all together.

Still doent make since, all kinds of companies go out of business, so the same mentality should be used say in construction ? So a company gos under and all the other companies are to honor hiring dates ? Could you see that, that system would undermine the moral and hard work of others ? Bottom line is **** happens, you make a bad choice or your company gos under, you move on. The surgon that moves on is only guearenteed income bases on his abilities not when he graduated med school or started working at a hospital

Two quotes completely explain the current pilot staffing woes:

"The talent always follows the money" and "No Bucks, No Buck Rogers"

Anything else is just a smokescreen.

Well can't say he is fully off base on the pay issue, but many things are factually incorrect.

Funny how we are smart enough for one list but the idea of having two lists that separates longevity pay and bidding priority is such a foreign idea.

We are not construction workers and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. Not sure of your background, but people are hired into management positions / or positions of seniority every day from outside the company. This doesn't undermine the morale or hard work of others. People are hired into positions that are commensurate with their abilities and paid a salary representative of their experience. Like the surgeon, a pilot should only be guaranteed an income based on his abilities not when he started working at an airline (hire date). :rolleyes:

I agree but that's not what your saying as far as I can tell, your saying that a pilot should be able to carry his sinority and pay scale to a new company, or am I missing something, if that's the case, let's look at it this way, you started with company x, worked very hard, did everything you could to make the company a better place, the next week two FO,s were hired that bumped you from your upgrade, because they had higher hire dates, form another company, if that's what your saying would happen in your system, is that fair, again if I'm reading it wrong feel free to tell me,

Thinking more about it, one difference between a surgeon or doctor and a pilot is that, while they're all skilled, a specialty surgeon or one with a high success rate will be especially sought after. You're recognized on an individual level. Pilots have no uniquely identifying attributes. You might suck at the job and skirt by getting violated day in and day out, but if you get the plane from A to B without crashing it and sweet talk the controller out of giving you a phone number, you're considered on equal footing with Sully. Doesn't seem right. But how could an airline gauge your quality relative to your peers? And what incentive do they have to do so?

Very true, and I'm not union bashing, but I'd bet doctors don't have or need unions because of that

No, that's exactly what I'm saying I think you're just reading it differently. There is no perfect answer. I think there would have to be some stipulations associated with the movement from one company to the next. Here are a couple of thoughts:
1) Seat locked for 1 to 2 years
2) Seniority is for pay purposes / benefits
3) No direct Captain entry
4) 10% to 20% reduction of seniority number (if you are a ten year pilot and move you lose 1 to 2 years of seniority), makes moving more deliberate.

I do understand your argument, but I can tell you as a FO who has only been at this for a couple of years and would be at the bottom of the "national" list, I wouldn't have any problem with one of my peers getting paid what they deserve.

I assume you meant to say violated.

If Sully came to work at Skywest he'd be paid $22 an hour as a FO and junior to me. Does that seem right?

An airline has NO incentive to pay you for your experience, hence the individual seniority lists at each company.

There shouldn't be seniority, except for within the same position in the same equipment. If you want to fly a different aircraft or in a different position for the same company, you should have to apply. That's the way it is in most of the business world, and all of a sudden a guy from X airline could apply to Y airline for an upgrade, essentially taking all his "experience" with him. It would destroy the problem.

I kinda see your point, but I'm one of the guys that looks at the regionals as a stepping stone, and apprenticeship to say, it shouldn't be a 10 year career, if you chose to make it anything but a progression to the majors then you should have to live with the consequences if there are any,

Bingo! I suppose that's ALPAs fault too. :rolleyes:

Pilots are the only ones that see it like this. The company has to operate according to 121 regulations. Passengers are told they're on the mainline airplane and for all intents, that's where they think they are. Pilots are being used by this system and "regional" airlines are anything but.

Again my brother we agree, but I don't think the majority of pilots who have been in the regionals for an extended period have done so by choice. Certainly some have, but I think that is a small percentage.

The majors have not been hiring for several years and guys / gals have been stuck through no fault of their own. The seniority list as it stands now only serves to benefit management and Im not a "bash management" kinda guy,

I did. Long day. Thanks.

I think that one thing everyone seems to over look is its not as simple as big bad managers or ceo's the vast majority of airlines are publicly traded company's that are held accountable to there share holders, and whether you think it's sucks or you support it, one things for sure, capitalism is what's made it all possible, I guess we have the choice of going over to Russia and flying there, my personal belief is that over the last 20 years one major thing has been over looked, 20 years ago a young man or women wanted to become an airline pilot they did so knowing and was encouraged to be very flexible in life, if you lived in Florida and your next step involved moving to California, you packet up and went without batting an eye, now you see young regional pilots buying, new cars, maybe houses, having kids, all the things that lock you in. It's not that the system has changed so much in 20 years, it's that the pilots have, so the easiest thing to do in our minds is get the system to change to fit our lifestyles and needs, well good luck with that. Opportunities are still around for pilots at the major level, they just have to be willing to sacrifice to get there. Talk to any senior mainline pilot, I'm talking guys 55 plus, ups, fed-x, delta, ect. They will all tell you about eating top romen and barely getting by in there early years,

I think the "It sucked for me, so it should suck for you mentality" is slowly going away. 20 years ago there was a surplus of pilots. That is not the case in 2014.

Good point. That sums up the entitlement generation very well.