You can't take the written without the sim training, and the sim training you get in 121 isn't allowed, so there is extra sim and classroom time required that's prohibitively expensive at this point.

Not for an airline with access to all those shiny simulators and classrooms. If you can put a guy through Initial New Hire training you can afford the extra 30 hours of instruction and some sim time. What are you not getting?

It's expensive and they want to figure out the best way to do it, if they are going to put large numbers through it. Kind of makes sense to me. Make money, stay in business. Not really any regionals I know rolling in dough at this point.

It also probably means they need to hire the caliber of people that are going to make it through. Maybe goodbye to the "phone interview", unless those airlines are able to scrap by and make their applicants come with it done. Will be interesting to see.

The whole idea of the CTP is to increase the caliber of the pilots going into 121 operations. Sort a chicken and egg problem for the regionals. Pick someone, run them through the CTP and initial and hope they turn out or get someone who has made it through the CTP already.

Agree the actual cost of the program to an airline is low. Probably more of a question of how much open time do they have for their sims.

[QUOTE=Beech90;1747205]Thanks for the response, however I qualify for a R-ATP.

I am happy to be corrected.

My wish for you is to have a long, happy and prosperous career.

I wonder if this these new programs will result in an increase in companies with one or two year training contracts 'due to the significant increase in training costs' that will be associated with getting new pilots their ATP...

The problem with the airlines are the same problems many US industries are having in which is no desire to spend money in order to train people who do not have the background/skills they need. In the mid to late 1970's the US airlines were providing anywhere from 8 to 13 weeks of real training compared today in which is much less training. If US industries have no desire to pay for the training or investing in their employees the only solution is go out of business. We have already witness foreign industries already eclipsing and pulling away from US industries. Government protection and tariffs will only take you so far before a good company navigates around it.

I agree with bozobigtop

Please correct me if Im wrong, but the ATP CTP only enables the applicant to take the ATP written. So in addition to offering an approved ATP CTP course, an airline would also have to become an authorized administrator of tests. Once the applicant has passed the written only then would they be be able to proceed with the ground school curriculum.

Am I correct?

I believe they could go to any CATS or Lasergrade testing site to take the actual written. There's at least a few of those in each city.

They need the CTP done before starting the official new hire syllabus. They can take the written at any usual testing center and must have it done before their ATP check. Could be 1-2 months after the course.

I wonder what happens if a "sponsored" applicant fails the ATP written after the money has been spent on the ATP CTP. Additionally, having to study for the ATP written and attending a Part 121 ground school at the same time would be interesting.

Mason32 Says: No ATP Writtens Since August 1
 

Can someone point out in the new reg where it is that you have to have the CTP or the written done before a 121 indoc?

I believe the written is required only prior to your ATP checkride (oral/practical) as far as the FAA is concerned. It's more of a company requirement to have it done prior ground school.

It's very simple, you take the cockpit procedures training segment of the training in the simulator. The path for airlines to do this has been laid out already, there is just minor changes to the training curriculum.

How Regional Airlines might deal with new ATP written requirements | Airline Pilot Info

No whoever wrote that didn't do his research. The final rule clearly states the CTP must be done before the official 121 new hire syllabus. If a company is working on some sort of workaround then good luck to them, but it's an uphill battle with a clear rule.

In the Final Rule from July 2013.

Although part 121 and part 135 operators may elect to offer this training for their pilots, it would remain separate from part 121 and part 135 training requirements. Because the proposed ATP CTP is part of the basic certification requirements for an ATP certificate, air carriers who elect to offer this training would be required to provide the course to their pilots prior to beginning initial training. The FAA proposed that principal operations inspectors may approve a reduction of hours in an air carrier's initial training program based on material taught in the ATP CTP. However, because the ATP CTP requirements are basic certification requirements, these hours could not be reduced based on the contents of an air carrier's initial training program.

Where did you take your ATP CTP courses? How much did they charge you?

He didn't. You can get a R-ATP if you have 1500 hours and are 21.

That is quite the pickle. If I were you, I would evaluate trying to get turbine time at 91/135 environment. Eventually you could go straight to a national or LCC and skip the regional's all together.

If I was running a 121 hiring/training department, I'd make an ATP knowledge test part of the application process. Those that pass show that they'll probably pass with minimal instruction, so they will be provided the instruction and go on to be successful most likely. Those that don't pass will save money from being invested and leading to a possible failure.

Good thing you don't run a training department.

This is true, however it looks like the written is still required regardless of anything in 61.160. I do not see anything in 61.160 that gives any relief from the written test requirement.

61.153 seems to say that one has to "qualify" to take the written now.

Here is a quote of 61.153 from Electronic Code of Federal Regulations.

"§61.153 Eligibility requirements: General.
To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:

(a) Meet the following age requirements:

(1) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of §§61.159, 61.161, or 61.163, be at least 23 years of age; or

(2) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.160, be at least 21 years of age.

(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;

(c) Be of good moral character;

(d) Meet at least one of the following requirements:

(1) Holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating issued under this part;

(2) Meet the military experience requirements under §61.73 of this part to qualify for a commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating if the person is a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot of an Armed Force of the United States; or

(3) Holds either a foreign airline transport pilot license with instrument privileges, or a foreign commercial pilot license with an instrument rating, that—

(i) Was issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation; and

(ii) Contains no geographical limitations.

(e) After July 31, 2014, for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate obtained concurrently with an airplane type rating, receive a graduation certificate from an authorized training provider certifying completion of the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in §61.156 before applying for the knowledge test required by paragraph (g) of this section;

(f) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought before applying for the practical test;

(g) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of §61.155(c) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought;

(h) Pass the practical test on the areas of operation listed in §61.157(e) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought; and

(i) Comply with the sections of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought."

According to paragraph (e), it looks like the ATP CTP is required prior to "applying" for the written.

According to paragraph (g), the knowledge test is required in order to be eligible for an ATP.

If I'm interpreting this all wrong, please advise and assist.

Thanks!

That sounds great but the problem folks in the training department are the ones who already "know everything" not the ones willing to learn.

It doesn't sound great or bad, it's the logical thing to do in business. As far as being willing to learn, exactly what does that have to do with anything here? Exactly how many regional airlines expect you to study material and show up knowing the aircraft limitations and other rote memory items? Pretty much all of them. This is no different. I expect that airlines will do the ATP written program (but possibly make you pay for it/sign a contract), but only if you demonstrate to them you can pass it when given the knowledge test.

Datsun,

That's all correct. BE90 was unable to take the written before August due to the age requirement. Now that me meets it for the R-ATP he still needs to pass the new written. But to do that he needs the ATP CTP.

James I agree, the atp test isn't that hard, it would be a great gauge for study habits , I think sheppard air still sells preps for certain airline writtens that are pretty much based on the atp written.

I think they did a total rewrite of the test, so its kind of unknown how hard it is or isn't. I definitely wouldn't want to be the guinea pig.

Not surprising. Assuming the data is correct, I'd guess:

1) Everyone who possible could (IE had the time), rocked the test prior to the deadline, and essentially drained the pool of test takers

2) Everyone who missed it is hanging tight because they'll assume any airline that picks them up will have some kind of CTP course set up (which, eventually, they'll have to).

Net result is not many taking the test right now.

Nu