PDT's vote didn't sink you guys. A small 35 aircraft Turbo prop utfit that cost more money to get anywhere near the size will cost AAG more money in the long run. They could just give more airplanes to the contract carriers. They know this and that's why they not only come back once, twice but now it looks like 3 times.

Go ahead and bring up the CEO compensation at negotiations, im sure it will have a lot of leverage :rolleyes: . Then you can look like a "dummy" to quote you.

Guys, it's very simple. Wake up. Look at your cards. Open your eyes. Time's on our side. It's a solid NO vote. Let them sweat. Now, where is my popcorn!

Well said. Its really that simple. Thanks and hang in there.

How Jerry's kids are allowed to freely wonder through the forums spreading Christmas fear and dispare.
NO is No. Three times No. Want to make it 4 times let's do it. Aag feed is unraveling. Feeders screwing pilots to try to meet the schedule. Mesa is losing lax and clt and they are the cheapest why is that. Heard delta suing compass for breach of contract because they can only feed delta if true there goes another 20 175's up for grabs again.

AA full abortion. no one can fly your garbage.

A lot of the "industry will never change" types seem to cleverly disregard the solidarity between Eagle, ExpressJet and Republic. Thousands have said no. The whole "get in, get out" mentality doesn't work. The planes are getting bigger and the stay is getting longer with that philosophy. Pay me what I am worth, you douchebags, is the new philosophy.

If flow is the issue, why not put in this proviso: if flow is dropped or canceled, immediate 15% increase in pay for all pilots. If it is metered, the pay increases 1% for every slot below 30. Increase cap to 15/6.

Because the company can play the "NO" game too. (And they already have with that one last time)

What will solidarity buy you in the end? I'm asking this to see what exactly the tangible benefits are. I'm also asking to point out that, in the end, despite the pat on the back we might get from other regionals, we are in this alone. I have been, and likely will be, a no voter; but in the interest of non-AAG offer discussion, what's the perspective here?

I would think that is obvious. The whole regional model relies on the shell game where one airline offers quick upgrades in exchange for pilot contract concession. Then others follow suit. IF 10,000 pilots are taking a stand against this, it becomes impossible to shift a large amount of flying around to the lowest bidder. If a pilot group of 4,000 says no, it makes it easier for the group of 2,000 to say no, since they know they won't be undercut and they feel a sense of dishonor if they try to undercut the others through concessions.

Finally, the puppy mills aren't cranking out the pilots like they used to so there is no way to use the SJS to attract enough newbies. It should also be painfully obvious by now, that never ending rounds of concessions just ensure regionals will persists, and fly ever larger aircraft at the expense of mainline jobs.

In a nut shell....nice.

Guys, a few things.

To say that MIA would still be open, or if the eagle pilots vote yes then "X" would happen, etc - that is saying that management is purposefully allowing an employee group to dictate long-term business plans involving whole companies and billions in assets.

Does anyone here REALLY believe that management would put any labor group, especially the pilots (the only real commodity group) in the driver's seat?

Parker has said it himself, they are merely trying to lock in lowest cost as long as possible. That is parallel to, but not dependent upon their business plan. In other words, the business plan remains unchanged regardless of what they are able to do with labor. At best, the pilots may temporarily affect timing.

Also do not expect anything in the form of assurances of base decisions. Management would never, ever put that in writing. If it's not in writing, it doesn't exist. Anyone remember how long "...the foreseeable future..." was? It's a waste of time to even talk about keeping a base open as part of a deal. One only has to think back to the situations under which LA and BOS closed.

You should quit the airline business and stick to flying J3 Cubs. It's single pilot and all you have to worry about is yourself.

True. Delta pilots didn't become some of the highest paid pilots in the business by giving concessions and shrinking to profitability. They held their line in full knowledge that airlines require pilots to fly the aircraft.

Apples to frikken watermelons. Contract anything doesn't have the San leverage, especially if there are multiple vendors. The bean counters are always going to go with the cheapest when all else is equal

Yeah I don't think Envoy pilots (or any regional pilots for that matter) have the same leverage as mainline pilots. I think it's time for Envoy pilots to wake up and realize that they're not mainline pilots.
Either become like PSA and PDT or stop getting a paycheck.

Spoken like either a mainline pilot who wants the regionals to fail or someone who would screw over fellow regional pilots just to build time for a major.

Which are you?

Bean counters go for whatever saves or makes them money. It's apples to apples. The circumstances are different for each airline but it is still a matter of union pilots negotiating fair contracts to fly aircraft.

I guess if you repeat that to yourself enough times it allows you to sleep at night. Of course it doesn't help the thousands of Envoy employees in MIA whose lives have just been ruined. I'm speaking in particular about employees who are NOT flight crew members and for whom commuting is NOT an option. What do you suggest they do now, all knowing one? Being based in MIA I see first hand fathers and mothers who are now facing a very empty future thanks to people like you misleading the pilots and being very selective with your 'facts" earlier this year.

And stop being naive and acting so innocent. You know as well as anybody else that the E175s were to be deployed to MIA initially. It was made very clear and was a not so secret bit of information. Again, you are just being selective with your information. Just like you guys were very selective with the staffing information at other Regionals...perpetuating the myth that nobody could staff their current flying let alone new flying. The gullibale pilots at this company need to share the blame...they didn't need to fall for your misinformation and could have done research on their own. But don't try to reverse rationalize things now. You and the rest of the MEC from back in those days share responsibility for what is now happening at this company.

The first problem with sticking together, is that our unions are held hostage buy this railway act. It allows management to drag out negotiations, instead of negotiating in good faith. Being able to drag out negotiations for 8 years is just absurd.

Since the union path takes forever, the only way for anything to change is for pilots to do it themselves. Say I not going to follow those jets to the other company. But then reality sets in, and when the furlough comes we realize that outside of aviation, we are unskilled labor (unless you have a degree in something else you can use). So the choice for many is follow those jets and make 25k year one, or go work retail for the 18k.

Management knows all this and that's why they continue to whipsaw us.

If the regionals fail that means more mainline jobs. Who wouldn't want that? It's a win win for mainline pilots and regional pilots.
I don't need to build time (I think 12000 TT is plenty) and I'm not a mainline pilot. I just think Envoy pilots (and express jet and repubic) are fooling themselves if they think regional pilots will ever have leverage when companies like PSA, PDT and Mesa lower the bar, and fellow regional pilots flock there in hopes of quick upgrades. Until pilots refuse to work for such companies the regional industry is doomed.
So Envoy can either join the race to the bottom or fail to exist is what management wants you to believe. So far it looks like management is the one to believe thus far. ALPA has done nothing to prove otherwise.
Until ALPA shows Envoy something credible that holding the line is working, I've got my money on management winning this game.

I agree with your logic, but where is the data to support your hypothesis. There is of course the idea of supply and demand. Dry up the supply (regionals) increase the demand (cost per ticket). Win-win for the management. Just a thought.

I do however hope you are correct.:D

I agree with most of what you have been saying. Especially in regards to Regional pilots not being Mainline pilots. Most current Regional pilots forget the fact that the Regionals operate under different rules and realities than mainline operators. We therefore can't expect to use the same tactics and get the same results.

The only thing I disagree with is the paragraph I quoted above. If a Regional fails it may or may not mean more mainline jobs. But what it absolutely will create is a saturation of unemployed, qualified pilots all chasing the same jobs.

So even if it did create more jobs at mainline in theory, the number of vacancies would be canceled out by the excess number of available pilots. Keep in mind there is always the flow of military pilots, LCC pilots, and pilots from large Cargo operators like Atlas and Omni. Not to mention the American pilots overseas with Boeing and Airbus experience.

That group is always hired first. Regional Captains get the left overs, while Regional FOs are hung out to dry. Even with more mainline jobs there are more than enough pilots from that "favored" group to fill seats. The excess of Regional Captains unemployed and looking for a job will round out the remaining slots.

Just saying...a Regional fails today and the market is flooded with pilots. That is guaranteed. More jobs at mainline? Not a guarantee, and either way not a problem from a staffing point of view.

I said regionals (as in a whole) not a regional (singular).

Nope, not even close. Mainline has restrictive scope. Without it regionals would be flying anything that makes them more money. Cost of the asa and performance is the main criteria for regionals, therefore no leverage.

While I agree with that premise, the fact remains you're thinking like a pilot and not an airline manager. It is not in any airline's best interests for their regionals to fail.

Whipsawing keeps costs down. They whipsaw the regionals against the mainline to keep mainline costs down and they whipsaw regionals against each other to keep feed costs down. It's a win for the airline. They don't GAS what pilots think about it.

Do you mean ASM?

Regionals serve several functions. Besides the whipsaw factor as noted in my previous post, they also can serve markets not financially feasible for mainline routes. Clearly it's more economical to fly a full A320 than a full E145, but that economy of scale quickly disappears when the A320 only carries 30-50 passengers yet costs the same to operate.

Regionals allow airlines to reach markets otherwise uneconomical to service.

When are you guys expecting to hear something about an official new proposal?

No, I mean airline service agreement. But the rest is correct

Never hopefully.
AA flight attendants voted no, by a slim sixteen votes.
AA pilots from the boards appear to be against AAG proposal to them.
Eagle/envoy 4 times has told AAG take a hike.
Only people passing there ta's are the groups from us airways.

Parker has started a firestorm and is trying to buy his way out of trouble before he takes AAG into bankruptcy which he will do anyway.