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-   -   Could the ATP requirements be rolled back? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/86335-could-atp-requirements-rolled-back.html)

kycfi85 02-06-2015 05:47 PM

Earn the hours. Learn something. 250 hours is not enough to be responsible for 50 people in the back of an airliner.

RB211 02-06-2015 07:49 PM


Originally Posted by baseball (Post 1820855)
They will have trouble making it off probation. Captains are getting tired of conducting instruction for free. Not sure who is going to conduct this mystical and magical training. Experience is really the best training out there. Not sure how you can minimize experience.

An ATP is an instructor rating. Instructing is part of the job. The FAA will renew your instructor certs if your an ATP employed as a Captain in an Airline. Your instructing every F.O. you fly with, grooming them to be the next Captain, teaching by example.

bedrock 02-06-2015 09:00 PM


Originally Posted by baseball (Post 1820859)
Air Asia had a low time and inexperienced co pilot
Air France had a low time and inexperienced co pilot
Trans Asia had a low time and inexperienced co pilot


I think experience might be an issue right now, at least at foreign carriers.

AND 2 of those crashes had CHECK AIRMEN on the flight deck!

bozobigtop 02-07-2015 04:27 AM


Originally Posted by skypilot35 (Post 1820828)
Given the number of current pilots who hold an ATP, there is no reason to roll back the requirement.

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/av...Air12-2013.xls

Raise the pay and maybe more of those 153,000 ATP's will be attracted to the profession.

Anybody know how many pilots are currently employed by the airlines? I am sure it is less than 100,000. That leaves a pilot surplus of over 53,000 pilots. There is no pilot shortage.

The FAA should inform so called analysts that those statistics doesn't distinguish between US and Foreign citizens. I know many US pilot license holders who don't live in the US!

baseball 02-07-2015 04:30 AM


Originally Posted by RB211 (Post 1820918)
An ATP is an instructor rating. Instructing is part of the job. The FAA will renew your instructor certs if your an ATP employed as a Captain in an Airline. Your instructing every F.O. you fly with, grooming them to be the next Captain, teaching by example.

I don't get paid for that. I get paid to manage the operation and mentor the younger pilots.

Sure, an ATP can give instruction, but every second of every trip is a little overboard in my opinion. It's really a firehose effect at this level for an inexperienced and ill-qualified FO. The amount of information needs to be metered and controlled. I'd like to be able to let my guard down over a four day trip and relax a bit and enjoy the trip.

If my airline decided to make me a check airman then I would agree with you. No over-ride, no instruction in my opinion (within reason).

I just flew an international long haul trip with a low time FO. It was too much work in my opinion.

jetn67 02-07-2015 06:30 AM


Originally Posted by ClearRight (Post 1820374)
This about sums it up.

"Miracle on the Hudson" Pilot Joins 3407 Families In Push For Airline Safety

"3407 families are fearful of a push by the airline industry to ease the training requirements, and that it might be sneaked in as part of a broader bill to re-authorize the the FAA Charter this year."

Good point!..I dont see it ever happening..What if there is another
accident as a result of them changing the rule?..Way too much
liability

JamesNoBrakes 02-07-2015 07:08 AM


Originally Posted by RB211 (Post 1820918)
An ATP is an instructor rating. Instructing is part of the job. The FAA will renew your instructor certs if your an ATP employed as a Captain in an Airline. Your instructing every F.O. you fly with, grooming them to be the next Captain, teaching by example.

Not exactly. FAA isn't supposed to renew your instructor certificate based on just being an airline pilot, the POI or inspector is supposed to have direct knowledge of your instructing ability, rather than a random inspector or AST. This has slipped through the cracks from time to time though, so I don't blame anyone that has gotten it.

· A position involving the regular evaluation of pilots.

NOTE: FAA ASIs should review evidence of the applicant’s employment, which should clearly show that the applicant is in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots. ASIs also should have personal knowledge of the applicant’s flight instructing capabilities and qualities before renewing that applicant’s flight instructor certificate.
If you think about it, there is so much more a flight instructor can do, in terms of train a private student, commercial, and they have to stay on top of part 91 and 61 regulations, which is usually something that most ATPs don't. For the ones that ARE active instructors, this is probably not a huge issue, but if you just have it to "have it", that's what the FIRCs are for.

If you are going to your CMO office or you can have the ASI contact your CMO, it probably would be fine, but it's not supposed to be an "automatic renewal", this from the inspector's handbook (8900).

Std Deviation 02-07-2015 07:12 AM


Originally Posted by GogglesPisano (Post 1820777)
Unless checkrides can become more objectified, any attempt to use them to weed out plots will be met with stiff resistance. Sen Lautenberg of NJ tried to pull a "One Strike and You Need to Find Another Line of Work," rule and it didn't go anywhere.

I worked for a regional that had a 50% bust rate in the CRJ. It was obviously far from objective.

IMO, the whole DPE system is flawed. What does it indicate: On that day, in that aircraft, under those conditions, with that examiner, my private pilot applicant performed (or not) for a three hour period. I did 3000+ hours of primary instructing (gold seal CFI) and had applicants that I figured would pass with flying colors - nope, pink slips. Others that I did all I could for, and hoped for the best - passed without a glitch.

Then you have the financial incentive issue. In the 90's some examiners were making 100K a year just giving checkrides (when a private exam was $125). I don't know what the answer is. But after flying with someone for 40 hours you get a better glimpse at behavior and traits than a quick look see.

ACA had a pretty high failure rate on the CRJ at one point as well. To them it was the space shuttle. They gave us maintenance manuals at indoc. At JetBlue I get a lot of, "you don't need to know that." Which is great, but being old school, I'm still wondering what the answer is sometimes.

NineGturn 02-07-2015 07:50 AM

There is another thread on this same topic started several days ago I believe.

It boggles my mind why any pilot would be against the higher minimums rule.

Sully is speaking out on behalf of pilots...why would you guys not want that?

Can someone please explain this.

Cubdriver 02-07-2015 08:00 AM


Originally Posted by Std Deviation (Post 1821086)
IMO, the whole DPE system is flawed. What does it indicate: On that day, in that aircraft, under those conditions, with that examiner, my private pilot applicant performed (or not) for a three hour period. I did 3000+ hours of primary instructing (gold seal CFI) and had applicants that I figured would pass with flying colors - nope, pink slips. Others that I did all I could for, and hoped for the best - passed without a glitch.

Then you have the financial incentive issue. In the 90's some examiners were making 100K a year just giving checkrides (when a private exam was $125). I don't know what the answer is. But after flying with someone for 40 hours you get a better glimpse at behavior and traits than a quick look see.

ACA had a pretty high failure rate on the CRJ at one point as well. To them it was the space shuttle. They gave us maintenance manuals at indoc. At JetBlue I get a lot of, "you don't need to know that." Which is great, but being old school, I'm still wondering what the answer is sometimes.

Agree 100%. Scientists and experienced flight instructors (career instructors) wince at the testing methodology used by the FAA to test pilots. A basic knowledge of statistics will tell you that a reasonable level of certainty, say 95%, cannot be achieved with less than about 30 samples taken from a purely random, consistent population. By contrast, the FAA has a pilot candidate taking a single checkride that will supposedly be representative of years of future aircraft operation, based on only one flight. No wonder airplanes crash.

A case study can be found in any college course- an instructor gives multiple closed book exams per semester, 4 or 5 usually, plus a final exam, plus they usually throw in a weighted score for homework grades, and after all that is calculated a final grade is established using a curve scatter because it is known that natural logarithms apply. Even with all that care and effort, students still complain "oh I got a B when I deserved an A". Imagine how random it would be if a final score were assigned using only one exam! At best you would get a ballpark idea such as, this candidate is alive or dead. Worst it is inadequate testing based on one (1) personal opinion on one (1) particular morning or afternoon.


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