First Regional to sponsor work visas?
 

So, what do you think: Is it just a question of "when" not "if"?

I don't see any of the majors sponsoring work visas anytime soon but it seems to me that the regionals might be close. Wishful thinking on my part?

I hold both an EASA (EU) ATPL and an FAA ATP and have plenty of 135 and 121 (equivalent) time including Jet PIC.

I may be tempted to move to he US for a few years just for the experience. I think it would be great for the wife and young kids.

Why wouldn't regionals try to take advantage of experienced foreign pilots who may wish to live in the States for some time?

It's not like I would be taking a job away from a qualified and experienced US citizen.

The US govt would have to change work visa category rules or else create a new visa category.

My airline has full new hire classes currently, so they wouldn't be looking to go down this route.

I could of sworn some company wanted Australians to come work at their regional... or something like that

I know of nobody doing it or plans to do it but it seems like a future logical step. Most US pilots would rather the entire regional airline system just collapse and go away though.

I worked in Europe and learned how to fly under JAA (now EASA) rules. It's night and day different. Some things are better in the US and some things are better in Europe.

The door seems to have closed on me returning to Europe to work. I asked a buddy at LX and in spite of the shortage there it seems impossible for me to go back. They won't sponsor work visas there anymore. I was married then so it was different back in the 1990s and early 2000s.

I don't know how it would be with getting a work visa in the US but you really don't want to start at the bottom of a seniority list at a US regional carrier. Working in Europe was, for the most part, a vastly superior experience overall.

Believe it or not, the only things that are better here in the US are pay and training. The pay truly is better, at least at my company and with my seniority, over what I made in Europe. The other thing is training. The training and standards here, again speaking only of my current employer, are notably higher than they were when I worked in Europe. We had a bad safety and accountability culture at my carrier there (IMHO) but here (at my current airline) things are far better in terms of CRM and accountability.

Anyway that's a bit of a tangent. I think you'd be better off pursuing a work visa with a respected corporate operator (fractional) or a major airline. Regional airlines are, for the most part, dead end jobs and your family life will suffer. Many people in the US (myself included) hope the regional model is vastly reduced as it's nothing more than a B-scale in terms of pay and working rules but you fly jet equipment in the exact same markets as larger, major airlines. Working at a regional airline should never be considered a destination.

I think that was just an instance of dipping toes into the water ... the US has a special visa for Australians that lets them come to work here with fewer restrictions than most visas.

Cape Air is already doing it.

It's being considered privately by most large regionals.

So the question begs to be answered.
Would you guys/gals prefer foreigners coming over to take regional jobs or would you prefer the ATP rule to be relaxed so that regionals could hire Americans?
Not trolling, just really curious.

I don't like the idea of others taking our jobs. But if there aren't enough of us here then I guess it will happen just like it has happened in other countries. However, they shouldhave FAA certificates and meet 121 requirements. But I don't support a relaxation of the 1500 hour rule. Even though it hasn't created better pilots, I feel the experience pilots gain before going to the airlines is important.


The fact is though, the demand is global, and additional pilots from sponsoring VISAs probably wouldn't make that much difference.

Why would a qualified pilot willing to relocate come to the U.S. And work for the equivalent of minimum wage when they can go to the ME or Asia and make a lot more money? If it were to happen I would like to see a reciprocation so we could go work in Europe or other desirable places (not Asia or the ME) with less red tape.

I honestly don't see any "Visa Program" really solving any problems. I just don't see massive amounts of Euros and others flocking here for this garbage. *** would they?

Also its getting to the point, sooner than later, that even a reduction in the ATP rule will not magically solve the death spiral that the regionals are facing. The game is over. It will be hung onto as long as freaking possible, but hardly anyone is taking on the debt, time and BS to enter this profession.

I would prefer the pay go up to make it an attractive career for high schoolers/college students.

My mom is a nurse and the pay used to be horrendous, however the simple laws of supply and demand took over and now nurses are paid very well because it is a very attractive career.

Sublime I get that and I agree with you.
However, just curious, with regards to the question posted which would you prefer?

To be honest with you, I don't want either to happen. Supply and demand is a very basic economic principle that works. If you make a career as an airline pilot attractive enough, then there is no need to hire foreign labor or reduce the barriers to entry.

I know that's not the answer you're looking for, but both scenarios you proposed are equally detrimental to any current or future airline pilot.

^^^like^^^

NEITHER!! Last thing this horrendous industry needs is one of the above. The regionals deserve nothing more than to wither away and die. This airline thing career is a joke, at best.

Maybe I'm naive about how many foreign pilots would be willing to work for a us regional, but I doubt there is enough qualified foreign pilots that would want to make a jump to a us regional to have much of an effect on the supply and demand of regional pilots here. My guess the pilots that would come would be trying to get a 1000 hours in a e 175 and then jumping to anther foreign carrier that pays better than the US.

With that being said, I'm not sure such a deal even fits in with our current work visa structure in the US. It also may open a whole political can of worms within the public eyes with our current immigration issues. Also, If a pilot's ultimate goal is becoming a permanent resident or citizen here in the US, a work visa isn't necessary a path to that in our convoluted immigration process.

Same thing happened in the medical field....

Corporations do not want to pay more... the plan is simply to get workers from third world countries who will gladly earn 20K year.....

next step... break the unions.

Lot's of interesting views here. Thanks. I don't see lot's of foreign pilots flocking to the US to fly for the regionals. Most developing countries (China, India etc) need all the new pilots they can get. Most experienced pilots anywhere in the world make more than they would as an F/O in the US.

The way I see it: The regionals will have to increase pay significantly, but the positive effects won't be immediate and therefore the airlines may have to start being inventive when it comes to filling those gaps. I agree with those who have said that foreign pilots won't be the solution to the looming regional pilot shortage but they might be a mitigating factor.

Personally, I would like to do it for the (life) experience, but not at current first year F/O pay. I would prefer working for a good fractional or corporate operator but I think those are far from facing a pilot shortage. In any event it would be like a sabbatical for me and it would mean a pay cut. But life is not all about the money.

It's true that a regional airline sponsored work visa might not fit in with the current visa structure because H-1B visas require at least a bachelor degree as far as I can tell.

One poster commented on the better pay and training in the US vs. the EU but I am not sure he was comparing apples and apples. Airlines such as BA and Lufthansa have excellent training and most Legacies still have very good pay.

Sure, there are some low cost, regional and air taxi operators that offer neither decent pay nor quality training. NetJets in Europe for example is similar in pay and training to NetJets US. Lufthansa CityLine is probably the best-paying regional in the world.

Do you have any idea how much money a regional pilot in the US makes? Your wife better plan on having a good job if you plan on feeding two kids?

Or get a second job working as a delivery driver for Pizza Hut. PM me if you need the number, I'll put in a good word for you. They like hiring first year regional FO's. :)

That would not be a bad thing at the regional level. Imagine the chaos if all the regional pilots at your airline were off doing there own thing how they saw fit, your company would not be able to keep up.

The truth is unions (or associations for those airlines that don't have unions) do just as much to keep pilots in line, more so than a company could ever do.

Today when something goes wrong, unions are sued etc.. or have to worry about arbitrations and timelines, or violating contracts.

This is an honest question which I have no idea of the answer.

What if a regional airline dumped their union and did not form any other type of association to speak collectively on behalf of the pilots? What would happen? What would happen if 20 pilots just decided to call in sick as a work action. Or 30 pilots or 40. Who does the company complain too? Do they sue an individual pilot for not coming to work? Do they fire the entire group?

Think about it. Since you have nothing as a regional pilot anyway, I hypothesize things could be better altogether for a unionless group. My argument is the union keeps you inline better than the company ever could.

Why would foreign pilots come to America for $22k?

College semester credit.

Short answer... Jet time.

In Europe if you have not been to the right flight school nor have a type rating with 500 hours on type, forget it.

I know 5000 hour turboprop pilots in Europe who cannot get an airline gig, mainline, LCC or regional due to the 500 hours on type rubbish.

The other is Pay to Fly (P2F) that European pilots love prostituting themselves out for and the carriers are milking it.

They hire 20 year olds out of Oxford aviation who have paid for a type rating rather than a 5000 hour turbo prop pilot with real worl GA experience.

I know this because Im South African, Australian and EASA/JAA licenced with ATPL. It is disgusting how they treat pilots in Europe and allow these P2F schemes to go ahead.

So believe me when I tell you for 22K a European pilot will sell his soul and his mother to get that precious 500 hours on a jet type for 2 reasons.

1. To actually fly the type in Europe such as a ERJ 175

2. Join somebody like Emirates because they will not look at a 8000 hour king air pilot but will take a 1000 hour ERJ pilot due to weight category(over 25 tons), glass cockpit and jet time.

I have taken a job with a regional as an Australian citizen because there is a visa (E3) that allows us to work in the US and which I qualify for. I have a 4 year BSc Comp Science degree.

I also want to live there and commit my future to the US.

The pay is rubbish to start but my wife also works(60k plus salary) and it is the first year that will hurt the most, after that we will be fine
Egg320 is online now Report Post

We don't have to worry about many foreign (specifically EU) pilots beating down the regional's doors for a job. Most people with times that would be competitive or even meet mins at a regional airline would be able to land a far better paying job in a mainline aircraft oversees for three times the compensation.

There may be exceptions, as stated above, but I can't imagine that the number would be anything that would make any sort of a difference.

It's all about exploitation.... think third world... Global South

Actually, the saffer is right.
If you go on pprune you will see that he is not mistaken.
It is insane, you have guys that have thousands of hours on turbo props but they can't make it to the next level; as many of the 737/a320 operators out there prefer to hire integrated (think part 141) graduates from a handful of schools with about 250 hours TT. So egg320 makes a very valid point.

Yes I'm glad you understand the situation. By the way I'm a 4100 hour pilot with 3100 twin turbine including A320 rating and King Air and I can't get a job in Europe.

What I love about places like the U.S. And South Africa is they value experience in airlines regardless of type. They appreciate ME time on turboprops, bush flying, charter etc.

Europe is nothing more than a giant P2f scam. I know 20 year olds in A320 with 250 hours total because they did an integrated course with type rating through a school that has a deal with European carriers to train pilots according to their SOP,s but in turn the carriers only hire from those schools.

So if you did not train at Oxford aviation, CTC wings, Jerez in Spain etc you are basically cut out of the job market. In the U.S. The pilots would burn the industry to the ground if that happened to them and I really respect the U.S. Aviation community for that and want to be part of it.

I have been offered a golden opportunity and plan to grab it with both hands and commit my future to US aviation.

If the 1500 hour rule ever gets amended to allow this kind of ridiculousness I could see the US airlines trying to jump all over it.

I don't see it being a complete ban on people building time in a non jet, but just making it a lot harder to break into the industry than it is now. I cold totally see majors being like candidate A has a degree from X $250 pilot mill 5000 hours, 4800 hours in an E 175 and Candidate B only has a degree from University of Y state in engineering and 5000 hours, but only 2500 in a jet, let's hire candidate A!

I'll bet you were real excited getting hired at that regional.

GF

Which is why the FAA must never ever allow these P2F scams to go ahead in the U.S. They also must not reduce the 1500 hour rule because then you will have pilots on 22k a year in mainline with regionals just P2F.

The level of entitlement amongst 19 to 24 year olds is at epic proportions in Europe now. They assume because they are licensed they are entitled to fly the A320/737.

None of them have any life experience or flight experience and would never bother going off to do charter work on Barons, King Air, Caravan to build hours and learn their craft as well as have to make all the decisions.

On top of that European pilots hands on skills are atrocious due to the fact they go from flight school straight to an automated jet. It is nothing short of terrifying.

The AF447 crash, Air Asia and so on we're due to pilots not being able to hand fly a plane.

Painting with quite a broad brush there Egg320, don't you think?

I fly for a big EU operator and my colleagues are from military, airline and G/A as well as some former cadets. They are good pilots and do have hand flying skills. Sure, there is a risk with highly automated airplanes that one loses those skills but if the operators are aware and encourage manual flying t stay current as well as including it in recurrent training programs, those risks can be mitigated. Many major airlines have run cadet programs with great success. They tend to work because just like in the military the selection and training are very tough and far exceed minimum legal requirements. Now, pay2fly is a different story together and I hate it as much as the next guy.

Anyway, all these points are somewhat beside the point here. It will be interesting to see if foreign pilots will be part(!) of the solution (along with significant pay rises at the regionals) of the looming pilot shortage.

Noone would come to the US. US regional pilots are the lowest paid in the world. Foreigners would simply earn more staying in their own counties than working in the USA for 22k per year. Why would they come here to starve? If the regionals paid them better, then I could see people coming here. But moving to another country while earning a very low wage is not an attractive move to these foreign professionals. Don't expect professional pilots to flock to the US like central american migrant workers do.

Actually I have been in the position of flying with a lot of Southern Hemisphere pilots in SA, Aus, NZ and then American and Canadians as well as EUropean pilots doing charter work.

From my experience European pilots had the worst hands on skills. I'm not saying European pilots are not good but their hands on skills are lacking compared to other regions.

Yes there are good mil pilots etc but let's face it European pilots feel self entitled and think it is their right to go from Oxford to easyjet with 250 hours, age 20 and no life experience.

However with regards to your question yes if you open the flood gates they will come. The P2F and 500 hours on type gave turned European pilots into jet time junkies because they can't get jet time.

They won't care about 22k, they will get 1000 hours jet which is he golden ticket to an airline in Europe, Asia, ME etc. once they have the 1000 hours then I agree they will jump ship in the U.S. With the regionals and go take an Emirates, Cathay job etc.

Another thing I noticed in Europe with this level of entitlement is European pilots feel charter work on twin piston, turboprops etc is beneath them.

They all have shiny jet syndrome and feel somebody owes them a 320 job instead of going to Africa, Aus etc and doing charter to build time like you do in the U.S.

If I was a chief pilot and some guy came to me and said he would pay for 500 hours line training he would never get a job at my airline. Those guys really are bottom feeders as far as I'm concerned as they are ruining the industry for everybody else.

Not really. They could use E2 visas.

Hmmm, I may be wrong but it seems you are somehow frustrated with Europe or Europeans. It has not been my experience that European pilots feel self entitled. Most guys I have ever flown with (including cargo turboprop ops, B737 scheduled pax airline and VIP work) did not come from Oxford or similar schools but from all walks of life and all kind of backgrounds including bush flying in Africa and flying Concorde for BA or aerobatics displays with the Red Arrows. And, I thought their hand flying skills were just fine for the most part. I have also flown with Kiwi, US and Canadian pilots and I thought they were just as good but not necessarily better.

Depending on the quality of the operation you worked for in Europe, your mileage may vary but I'm not sure your broad brush statements are justified.

I worked at a school in Europe and I found a couple who were entitled, but there was also a large number who did not feel entitled. Sure, there were quite a few that were overly optimistic on job prospects for low commercial pilots fresh out of training, but with the high unemployment and economic crisis, many quickly realized the reality of the situation.

Europe can be frustrating for a young pilot with little to no experience, but I think it is a large generalization to say that most young pilots in Europe feel entitled.

I have heard that republic airline has given letters to foreign students so they can get they work permits. A student can apply and get work permit as a part of "OJT-on the job training" for a year to up to two years or even more if they keep enrolled as a student, they can work on the side. But it's only couple of casees that I have heard about.

Also, Australians are legally allowed to apply for work permit under E2 visa, however the rules are quite difficult to understand. Would need an attorney to figure it out.

And if the rules do change based on shortage I'm sure they would be enough applicants maybe more then the requirement, just to get the jet time and many are unemployed in various parts of Asia who did come to US to get they FAA license. Most prolly they wouldn't have 1500 hrs, but they are many who would meet the requirement too.

It just depends how the Regional, U.S. Government, ALPA and the majors play that game.