Advice for military 707 pilot w/ 2000 hours
 

Hi,

I might be exiting the Air Force in a year or so, and am researching what I am going to have to do to get an airline job. I currently live in Atlanta and HIGHLY prefer to stay since I'm right by the airport and can live VERY cheap there which will help year one in the the regionals...

I am currently an Aircraft Commander (left seat) flying the E-8 (Boeing 707) out of Georgia with about 1700 hours flying multi-engine jets and another 350 or so in the civilian world in Cessna's.

I figure I'll have to go regionals and have a few questions:


1. Any recommendations for a good regional when you are living in Atlanta?


2. What is the normal time in a regional to upgrade to left seat? With my experience (about 2 years and 700 or so hours as an aircraft commander) will I have to wait as long as a less experienced co-pilot with less hours


3. I've heard you never move for a regional?


I'm expecting to have to eat a lot of "humble pie" in order to make the transition to the airlines. This website is pretty helpful, so thanks for any advice you give!

Expressjet has an Atlanta base. They're not bad to work for but its a longer upgrade there. Commuting sucks but the way regionals open and close bases, if you're married and especially if you have kids, no way I'd move for a regional. And at the regionals, its not humble pie you'll be eating. It's a sh-t sandwich.

ExpressJet would be a good fit for ATL if that what you are looking for. But you may as well apply to Delta as they have a slight preference towards military pilots. Although you probably would not get ATL as your first base with Delta, not sure about XJT as they still operate separately for pilots (ASA & XJT).

You could try PSA or Piedmont as they too are close to ATL with their bases.

All regionals are running fairly short upgrade times with a few like Skywest, Horizon, and Envoy running a little longer than others.

Assuming you are applying to majors also. If not, do that as well.

500 mil hours (in same cat/class) can be credited to the FAA requirement of 1000 hours of part 121 SIC time required to upgrade (so you can upgrade at 500 hours if your seniority can hold it). I don't know what Atlanta based regionals have a quick upgrade time, if any. FYI it took me about 10 months to get 500 hours at Mesa from hire date. Would have been a little quicker if I stayed in a junior base and got a line quickly. Upgrade doesn't matter much in my opinion for you though, as you have mil heavy PIC time. You probably won't be at the regionals long.

Another thought.
 

You don't need an ETD, Flow, pref interview. Be careful not to work for a regional that will restrict your ability to work at your preferred mainline carrier until the 'program' gets to your seniority number.

Hey dude I was an E-8 guy that jumped ship about a year ago with similar time. I bypassed the regionals all together and went straight to an MD-11 cargo job and now have an interview with Southwest. There is no better time to get out than now. Unless you blead blue and see yourself doing 20 you should get out at the first chance you get provided you've had some time to log some Turbine PIC. The great thing about being in your position is that you have logged the Turbine PIC that the Majors are looking for so you don't have to worry about making it to the left seat at a Regional. You just need some 121 stink on you and some more total time and you're golden. PM me your phone number and we can chat. We actually probably know each other.

your experience means nothing in terms of upgrades...the ONLY thing that helps is you can count up to 500 hours of your PIC time towards the 1000 121 SIC requirement for upgrade....FWIW you shouldn't worry about upgrading at the regionals. I went to a regional when I separated last year, got just over 100 hours and invited to interview at DL....now I'm just waiting on a class date.

The average military new hire at delta has 3100 hours and 2200 PIC. You can't get that?

But plenty of guys hired with less.

Must be since my number is the average since January 2014

ExpressJet/ASA would be ideal with a large ATL base that will not close down, on a whim. Commuting sucks and it isn't worth the effort in your situation. Good contract, but the upgrade time is a while. With your heavy military TPIC time, I wouldn't worry about upgrade. Delta really likes ASA guys/gals and I would guess you wouldn't even be there more than a year. Delta should give you a call if everything else checks out (GPA, volunteer, masters?).

You do not need to work for the regionals. Look in the Major area on this website. Look at sections Delta Hiring News, as well as the Who's Been Hired section. Apply to Delta now and keep updating resume.

I was hired at delta with 2100 total hours with 'other' time subtracted. ~250 was single piston civilian and just over 100 121 time...had just under 1k mil heavy pic.


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While you are waiting for the majors to call, apply to ExpressJet. Tell them you want the CRJ when they interview you. That will ensure you can get ATL as a base. All the mil guys in my class were gone to their major of choice (one went to the FAA) within the year. You will not upgrade fast, but will not be abused nearly as bad as you would at some of these other regionals. Training is top notch. They are straight forward in what they expect out of you and have a generous commuter clause that extends to drivers (I assume you would be driving from Warner Robbins area). The pay is what it is, but you have the opportunity to pick up trips from other crew members and ATL always has trips up for grabs. PM me if you have other questions.

Don't waste time at a regional.

ExpressJet is actually one of the ones I've been looking at since I live in Atlanta (I commute to Warner Robins and stay in billeting a couple nights a week) and even by the MARTA train station that goes directly to the Airport.

Just curious, the pay chart on here for them is $23 an hour for year one first officer which is $20,700 a year. Is there anyway to avoid that since I have a bit more experience or do I just need to suck it up? Truth be told, not having to move will save a lot of money even if my paycheck is low.

Thanks!

I had guys with thousands of jet/airline hours, one guy with 747 time, a c130 bro, and other experienced people in my class at Mesa. When you join the airlines you are nothing more than a seniority number. You start at the bottom and get paid accordingly. Experience/skill means nothing other than getting that seniority number. Upgrades to captain aren't based on anything other than seniority number, and maybe some captain recs.

That is the whole reason the airlines are the way they are. Any other profession, you can take your experience/previous pay with you. Not here. Which is how the airlines can screw pilots, because after a few years, your seniority is gold compared to starting at the bottom elsewhere for something slightly better.

Also, mainline can whipsaw pilot groups against each other in the regionals for this reason, or force a sham bankruptcy/closure to make one regional go away and transfer planes/pilots to other regionals, resetting their seniority/longevity. They just became $20k/year FOs instead of $100k/year captains. Labor costs reduced by millions overnight. Comair is a good example of that. Plenty of others as well.

There's more to it than that (unions, railway labor act, etc.), but there was a lot I didn't know coming from the mil to airlines about how it works. But that's the long answer of what your experience is worth to airline management. You are no better than a kid with restricted ATP mins of 1000 hours who flew a pattern in a 172 instructing the whole time. The only difference is your stay at the regionals will be quick, less than a year probably, and you won't get to enjoy food stamp wages for very long.

You have an ATP? If so, and you have recent flying logged , you won't have any problems getting hired at a major with a couple recs.

No I do not. I'm currently deployed until late January on a 6 month trip. When I get back I should have two weeks off for comp days. My plan is to try and knock out my ATP in that time or at least get started. Fortunately, I have time, and will be in the military for at least a year from today's date.

Have you considered one of the heavy charter or cargo airlines rather than regionals?

I know Omni Air Intl is running classes. Also Atlas or Southern or one of the many cargo operators out of MIA? Having heavy time might make you more valuable to them. They don't all pay great but it's better than year one at a regional? Also most of them are home based I think?

Yes, it's just I'm on day 3 of researching the airlines and haven't really gotten to the cargo ones yet lol. I'll start looking at Omni Air, Atlas, and Southern.

The only thing is I'd want to stay in Atlanta bc I can live super cheap (paid off place), instead of moving and incurring all those expenses and having to start over in a new city. Is it possible to commute to Miami or another city out of Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta?

A lot of those charter companies will pay to positive space you in Econ I believe so commuting isn't an issue. Do you have your ATP written done? If not, you need to look in to the ATP CTP courses, which are required. That is where a regional would be nice since most pay for that now. I'm sure there are GI bill ways to do it too, but I don't know for sure. As for the ATP itself, assuming you are using GI bill, look into higher power and get a 737 type. Otherwise, that's another benefit of a regional. Another type and free (kind of) ATP rating.

Keep in mind that the $20,700 is based on guarantee. In a years time when you get out of the military the regionals should be in all out crisis mode, meaning you will not be on reserve for long and can pick up overtime. There are guys that can consistently get 120 hours of credit per month. That does not mean you will fly that much, but you get paid that much. XJT has some great soft credit rules in the contract. Soft credit means credit that you do not actually fly for such as deadheading and trip rigs. Since you are deployed now, try to sock away as much money as you can to get you through year one pay. It is worth mentioning that you get paid $300 per week while in training, so the guarantee does not start until you start flying. Other companies will pay you guarantee in training, but for the privilege of living in base, I would forgo the extra cash for 2 months.

I second getting the 737 type. It's a good, free, and easy way to get your ATP provided you took your ATP written before the cutoff date. It's also one of the biggest reasons I think I got a call from Southwest with such low total time.

Have you checked the instructor box?
How about the evaluator box?
And also the Safety box?

If you can push for all three of those before you get out. They will add points to your applications.

I could not agree more about cargo companies like Atlas, Southern, and my current company, Western Global Airlines, being a good deal for someone that does not want to move and wants an easy commute. I work anywhere from 16-20 days a month and the company buys me a ticket out of my home airport to wherever my next trip will start and then they fly me back home when my trip is done. I get per diem the entire time I am away from home regardless of whether I am flying or not and I also spend a lot of time sitting reserve at home with a 12hr call out. And I make about $4500-5000 a month doing it. It's not the greatest, but it's not regional pay either and I don't have to pay for a crash pad or commuting expenses.

Retired NG, so I have to ask...are you looking to continue in the ANG/AFRes to get 20? If you go to a regional and can fly in an ANG/AFRes unit, the sting of first year F/O pay is noticeably less.

Stop thinking regional unless you have a skeleton in the closet. Get your app into Delta tomorrow. In one year the numbers you posted will be just fine! Apply to AMR, SWA and UAL as backups. If you live in Atlanta and want to stay in Atlanta Delta should be your first choice.

Why wouldn't you just do your 20 years and retire from the military then fly? I don't understand how guys do their 12 year commitments and leave with nothing...At the 20 year point, you will have much more flight time and a guaranteed income for the rest of your life..Seems like a no brainier to me..You can still have a 20+ year career at the airlines after retiring from the military...

The Air Force has been doing Reductions in Force for years where they let people go. I'm going to find out if I'm staying in or getting out in a year, so I'm planning for the worst case

Easier said than done if he doesn't have the ATP written done. No major/LCC/cargo airline will be interested, and the written isn't exactly cheap or easy to get. Regionals now pay for it, however. The written costs as much as getting an ATP/type. Plenty of AF/Navy/Army guys in the regionals with no skeletons. And based on his timeline he doesn't have a written that will be valid when he starts.

By staying active until 20 (for your said reasons) my uncle gave up 8 years of widebody captain pay at delta, experienced the furlough for a while until he got recalled. His Lt Col retirement hardly covers that pay disparity. Sure it's security, but without that "security" he would have been more secure at DAL, would have not been furloughed, and would have had a lot more money at retirement. And probably a higher QOL for longer at DAL. And that's not even counting the intangible cost of dealing with being active duty and the lack of QOL associated with it.

You don't know what the right timing decision is until age 65. Being on the front of this hiring wave is huge. That said, I'd get a seniority number and go find a guard unit to bum in until 20 and at least get something, and be able to drop mil leave when times get tough, furloughs happen, etc.

He can take a weeks leave and sign up with Sporty's and get it done. 4500 dollars. A small investment in a career.

Please PM me the secret. 3k TT IP, heavy, really heavy, light as well, nothing yet besides a Delta "fix it." Internal recs, no skeletons, etc. Now have about 6 months at a regional.

Don't discount the regionals. Don't think the majors are waiting to kick your door in and take you. I know a guy who got the call 3 weeks after he put in his app with no recs, IP time, jet time, etc...I know guys whose dads are legacy CAs who are still waiting. Hell, I know a woman whose only heard crickets, and she's got the golden ticket, right? Point is, it'll happen, maybe tomorrow, maybe not. Be prepared for everything.

And staying until 20? Getting out was a no brainier. Unless I really wanted a UAV. That's the present. Understand the past was much better for you older guys.

AWACS/JSTARS IP/SEFE/FSO going on four years at regionals. No one knocking at my door.

Agreed...I'll be taking a course in Atlanta as soon as I get back from my deployment.

Might as well scratch Suddern off that list. 90% chance you'll end up getting hired into the 737, and that his is NOT home based. The commute is on you, and it's miserable. And you'll get heavily penalized if you miss your commute for whatever reason. Read the Southern Air thread for better insight. There's a reason their "yearly" turnover quotas are hit every quarter... Or every month, for that matter.

Atlas is a good carrier. "Best of the Worst" as they say. Lots of mil guys get on with them and either stay or move on quickly to greener pastures. I know a few that went to Delta.

As far as WGA? Well, you're new to the game, so you really don't know how badly they suck, because you've got nothing but your military background to compare them to... But they're about the worst of the worst. You'll figure it out eventually; I thought Southern Air was great until I woke up and pulled my head out of my @$$; and back then Suddern was run by the same crooks and shysters now running WGA.

APU in Cairo? Who needs it? It's a "crew convenience" item anyway. Let them roast!

Yeah, you'll make more money flying for a scumbag ACMI charter company than you would for a regional (at least, initially) but you'll pay for it, in spades. A pound of flesh, they say? More like ten.

True, the flying is more challenging (sorta) but the abuse is epic as well.

If the OP wants to stay in Atlanta, then there's really only one choice, and that's ASA/ExpressJet, with a concurrent app in at Delta at the same time. But you might as well apply at Atlas; at least there you'll be treated more like a human and less like steerage when you commute. Business Class makes all the difference in the world.

Network, go to job fairs and keep your nose clean and you'll most likely be wearing the Delta hat within a year.

As of now I'm not going to be able to get my ATP until February since I'm on a 6 month deployment...

Should I wait to start sending out resume's or start now? I have a bit of time. If I exit the Air Force it will not be until around September of 2016.

I would fill out airlineapps while you're deployed with an available date of sep 16 and just have something to update later. Not much else to do on deployments. Then again, with an available date that far out and no ATP, you likely won't make it through the computer filters to get looked at. But no downside in my opinion. Filling those out is a pain.

Oh that sucks if the military doesn't let you work the full 20 years if that's what you want...I always thought guys just leave by choice at the 12 year point or when their commitment is up...its 2 years for upt and then a 10 year commitment correct? That's 12 years so what's another 8 to get a decent pension forever with full benefits...That would really suck if they let you go when your really wanting to stay and looking forward to retirement...

I understand your view but a government pension is more secure than a job at Delta....Airlines just started doing well again after many years in turmoil...There is no guarantee in a position with any airline..Look at Pan Am, Eastern, TWA and many others....They were the 'deltas' of their day...