Can Legacy Carriers Afford It?
 

Almost all regional carriers feed legacy airlines.

Your management paints a picture that they would love to increase your compensation, but they simply cannot be profitable.

THE SIMPLE FACT IS THE LEGACY CARRIERS ARE RETURNING BILLIONS TO THEIR SHAREHOLDERS IN STOCK BUY BACKS

What does a stock buy back mean?

It means the legacy carrier is so incredibly profitable they have no use for the money, so they are giving it back to the shareholders.

Think about that. They have no use for these profits. They choose not to invest these profits in you.

They do not need this money to invest in,

New aircraft

Better facilities

Reducing debt

Reductions pension obligations

Eliminating bankruptcy concessions imposed on their employees

What do the finest investors in the world think of stock buy backs?

A complete waste of money.

When management tells you they cannot afford to increase pilot compensation to appropriate levels, simply respond,

NONSENSE

NOW IS OUR TIME

BE PART OF THE SOLUTION

Social media is the key. Spread the word and be part of the solution.

People need to realize that the scam that is corporate america today needs to be put to an end...now. It's time to stop raping the middle class and hard working people. Most people don't realize that we have the power. We are the ones giving them hundreds of millions in bonuses and accepting this fact. Capitalism is a great idea, but greed has completely taken over. This cancer needs to be eradicated from our system or the system will fail.

I and everyone on here agree with you and know this is correct, but how do we fix it? I'm all on board with being apart of the solution to help. My decade of being at the regionals and in the left seat has yet to allow me a year to make over 85k. I have been on reserve the whole time and even as a captain I can't credit enough to make six figures yet. I'm not making this up and am posting this to let it be known that the pay in the left seat can be very subpar for the level of responsibility and cost of our training and education.

We all know ALPA is a broken environment and doesn't represent the airlines as a whole appropriately, but how do we all unite to create a standard in compensation that rewards all appropriately?

It doesn't get fixed at the labor level, we are way beyond that. As much as it pains me to say it, I believe it will take legislation.

You can start by not voting in concessions. Not one single one. Educate everyone you fly with that airlines are profitable and there should only be gains for its employees not cuts. Tell your union to demand high wages when they meet at the table with management. Not 1% raises, big raises.

Legislation always starts with public pressure . It's time to educate the public on what is really happening. As someone said before, it has to be a grassroots campaign. Collectively, we do have the capacity to help change this situation.

Nonsense, the profession was built on traditional unionism, today our pilot leadership sells us out for bribes, and payoffs. This couldn't be more clear.

At one time, we lived in a society where people would sacrifice for the common good, so that somewhere down the line, the next generation or a few generations later, the problem would be fixed and that generation would not have to face the same issues of the previous generation. Look at the formation of labor rules and unions due to the industrial revolution at the turn of the century. In those cases, businesses worked people like slaves in unsafe working conditions, they often endured gross injuries or were killed, and when they did not perform adequately, they often were physically harmed or killed. To "stand up" to it required placing the common good ahead of themselves, not so their problems would go away, but so future generations would not have to endure the same. I'm not sure this will ever happen in our current society that places the individual above all else. I'm not saying you have to get shot, like MLK, but he didn't stand up for what he believed so his life would be better.

ALPA isn't broken, it's working as intended. What is broken are the people elected to represent you, your fellow pilots. When the pilots who are represented, stay home and ride their mountain bikes, shoot pool, and watch reruns of the Golden Girls instead of going to their local chapter meetings, this is what you get, poor representation. It's no secret that no one looks after your interests like you do, and when you leave the union reps alone they, in the absence of input from their represented constutuients, do what they think is best, for them.
Let's face it, anyone who wants to hang out with management pogues is retarded to begin with.
"Standard in compensation that rewards all appropriately"
You want more money? You gotta pry it out of their greedy, gluttonous hands, and that requires the heavy lifting of "union work"

This is why you slave for peanuts.
I hear you can get a job in Seattle, where the minimum wage is $15.00, go there and flip burgers, please....

Try to run a big business without bowing down to massive government at every level. It can't be done. This isn't capitalism and hasn't been for a long time.

This is spot on. People who have no business experience think that corporations are buying the government, this couldn't be further from the truth. They completely ignore the fact that politicians get into office to become rich off corruption because they can't succeed in an actual business.

What are you even talking about...

When was the time any grassroots movement succeeded? Since the traveling public moans about service but overall is complacent with relatively cheap fares, public pressure won't come from them. Without public pressure, the only force that could influence legislation would be blood priority. You'd essentially need an accident directly resulting from low pilot pay. Colgan is the closest we'll ever come (i.e. commuting across the country, poor working conditions, etc.), but that only changed rest rules, not the economics.

So without the elimination of the Railway Labor Act or some kind of "pilot minimum wage," all we have is the hope that a pilot shortage does drive wages up at lower and then upper levels. So far it looks like regional management would rather lose market share and perhaps even shut down over giving pilots more money. Is that spiteful or is that spiteful?

Spoken like a true liberal. Contrary to popular socialist opinion, Capitalism is Great! Ask your grandparents. You have a choice to be a pilot (an employee), a CEO, or a shareholder (an owner). You are responsible for your successes and your failures. You are not being raped. You are choosing to live the lifestyle you have created. If you want change, you can change. You all (pilots) need to realize you are employees. Absolutely fight for higher wages, better work rules, and refuse to give in to concessions. But realize, you are entitled to nothing. You have a J-O-B. Try running a business. It will certainly change your perspective and help you realize you are in control of your own destiny.

Commie

........

Spoken like a true conservative. Contrary to popular laissez capitalism opinion, REGULATED capitalism is great!

My post above is sarcasm. However, this one to you is not. You're one short-sighted moron.

The unions and management have conspired to create a master/apprentice relationship between the "majors" and the "regionals", and we have all bought into it. As long as this relationship continues, nothing will change. It creates a "stepping stone" job and a "real" job. Combine that with the seniority system that rewards getting hired sooner, and you have the current situation.

Good luck changing a system that is designed to be this way by both our union and mainline management...

The RLA is legislation that I was referring to. It definitely needs to be undone, though that would prove extremely difficult. Pilots could obtain wages respective to the position IF they had some power; the RLA keeps our hands tied. Imagine if airlines added 10 dollars per ticket that went straight to the pilots (on top of our current pay). That in itself would give pilots a lucrative salary. The flying public wouldn't bat an eye at ten dollars...especially if they knew it went to the very people who were responsible for their lives. The problem is that most of the public thinks we are already very well compensated. Also, any gains in ticket prices go straight to executives who already make millions. If a company can go on strike, it will get attention...make the public aware of what's really going on. As of now, RLA prevents that. Change will have to come straight from pilots...a grassroots campaign to educate to public. I don't know the exact answer, but I am sure willing to do my part.

Unless regional pilots stop bending over for a "competitive" contract and start demanding a more progressive one, you are going to continue seeing this problem. Unfortunately, most go to the regional with the quickest upgrade because they can make captain pay quickly. How about we fight for a better contract and make current first year captain pay, first year FO pay? It may start with the yes voters but it is supported with the garbage that takes their place. When you start seeing fast workers with more unity than airline pilots, you start seeing how ********* up this industry is.

We have a business. You realize our government is bought by big corporations. Have you seen how much is donated to these puppets running for president now? Sorry but I don't have that kind of cash, and most hard working people are not a part of any union to get a voice either. Time for a reality check, stop drinking the Koolaid. The system is rigged against the middle class. Try explaining the billions made off the recession. Just scumbags profiting off the loss of the middle class.
Oh and I'm a libertarian buddy, I don't need anything from anybody...just a fair system.

Yes indeed...Time for a reality check. The President of ALPA makes over $400K a year while a regional FO makes $20K and qualifies for food stamps. Stop drinking both flavors of koolaid....

...........
 

I have mentioned on here more than once, about how the mainline "partners" are making billions off the backs of the "regional" pilots. That's Billions with a "B" kids. Don't try to tell me that they can't afford to pay you more. They can. There are more sinister things at play here than meets the eye. The biggest threat to the "regional" pilots livelihood is ALPA. Their have proven time and time again, that they are managements right hand man. They never fail to mis-represent. And all he while you people are shoveling money to this corrupt organization on a monthly basis. Your "representatives" are out eating lobster and running up exorbitant bar tabs, while you are eating ramen noodles, and worrying about paying your light bill.

If ALPA had any substance at all, this shuffling of aircraft between carriers as punishment would never even have been dreamed of.

Has ALPA been pushing to get all you "regional" guys on your respective mainline partners seniority list? Why not??? Jet what the hell have they been doing? Taking bribes and selling you down the river that's what they've been doing, and not just you. Look what they tried to push on the Delta guys.

Their time has come and gone fellows. They no longer serve any productive purpose. If their exploits came out in court there would be some jail time involved for most of them, and well deserved.

Then how are you going to get new, larger RJs with engines underneath the wings?

Today's millennial regional pilots want others to guarantee their success. They want guaranteed flows to the majors without having to interview and now some in this thread want a government mandated regional airline minimum wage.

They want all the rewards without doing any of the hard work and taking any risk to achieve their goals.

Just as they used to get the participation trophy for just being on the little league soccer team, they now want a guaranteed job at a major just for being a regional pilot and not having to interview and earn it.

Quite a conflicting statement.

You get what you can negotiate. A lot of regional pilots have negotiated their way onto the mainline list, and they deserve it because they got it.

Spoken like a true "millennial." Congrats!

Excuse me? How about just having equality? That's what I thought the USA, unions and or associations is/are about. Most or all had some interview at what ever company they work for. Where was the DAL interview for the Western Airline pilots? According to you why should they get a guaranteed job at DAL without being interviewed by DAL first?
Not going to happen when mainline buys a regional. (Thanks ALPA!) Have to use that "similar gauge equipment" argument.
God forbid the association provide the same treatment between mainline and regional pilots. Your mainline flying is so vastly different. I am sure this was all written about in the Line Dancing books the union wants us to read.
I know I should be sorry for feeling like this. I know like you say or imply all the hard work is only at mainline or people who work at a mainline. All other jobs are easy or much easier for regional pilots. We are all just a bunch of entitlement wannabes. I'm just glad we have people like you here to mentor us. Thank you for your insight.

The real problem is leverage, despite all this talk and rhetoric. The leverage we do not hold at the regional level. You can hold the line and demand more, etc, etc all day long. The problem lies in the fact that there is no leverage on our side at the Regionals against he mainline partners.

Here is how this goes. This is an actual story of a discussion between a large regional and it's mainline partner.

Regional: We would like to extend these leases with you on many of these RJ's that have been flown for years safely for you.

Mainline Management: Sounds great, we'd love to discuss it.

Regional: Great. Well, here is the thing. The rate you are paying us to fly these is totally unprofitable. We would love to continue to fly these jets, but we need to renegotiate new terms that are better for us, and allow our company to be profitable and can afford us to invest in our company and people.

Mainline: Nah, we are only comfortable with what the current terms are. Besides, we can just move these leases to another cheaper company. That continues to help our profits, and the planes will still be flown. After all, it really doesn't matter to us who flies these planes.

Regional: Oh yea, well......who will fly those planes for this other company. There is a shortage of candidates wanting to fly for these airlines now?

Mainline: Oh, that's an easy one. Many of your junior pilots will take a job there hoping for a quicker upgrade.

Checkmate.

See, this is why we don't have all this power so many think there is at the regional level. Yes, we do the same job, are skilled and trained and have a lot of responsibility. However, we can't force our companies to pay us more, because they can't increase their revenue to cover the higher expenses. To correctly show the profits the partners are making is fine, but unless you can force them to spend it at the regional level it is moot! When someone shows how that can be done I'd love to know. They just - as they ALWAYS HAVE - move the flying to a cheaper company. Unless there is a collusion at the regionals to all charge the same rates, and for all the regionals to have one payscale for the same aircraft. Even that won't help much, because companies with less longevity will always be cheaper, and mainlines can (and have in the past) start up a new regional to usurp higher costs at others. Usairways started Potomac Airlines years ago to fly Dash-8's and undercut Piedmont and Allegheny. United is shifting flying from XJT to Trans States. Mesa has done this for years. This is why you can't just demand they pay you more because you are worth it.

An interview is a negotiation, you aren't earning anything. Only people who own their own business actually earn something. The very definition of a union is entitlement through collective negotiation.

*cough* PSA *cough*

Seriously, PSA pilots, are you listening? We had 3, THREE employee groups say no to corporate greed, and then you guys came along.

Quit blaming PSA for your own pilot group's problems. Plenty of airlines are still getting non-concessionary contracts despite PSA. And it could be argued that our new contract that was voted in is hardly concessionary. Our new 12 year cap for CAs is only a couple dollars less than the 18 year captain pay under the old contract. All that in exchange for keeping jobs and massive growth. Hardly a bad deal. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at AAG and ALPA. Not PSA. The pilot group at the time voted to save their jobs. And after seeing what happened to Envoy, can anyone doubt that Doug could have easily shut PSA down quickly without even batting an eye? Twice the pilot group voted down contracts, and twice Doug placed aircraft at Mesa. What we have now is growth and movement which in itself is intrinsically valuable. No one is forcing you to stay wherever you are that has lead you to believe that PSA is the cause of your woes.

And 1st year regional FO pay will never be the same as current 1st year regional CA pay. The legacy partners would simply find a way to weasel out of the flying contracts and either start a new regional airline or give the flying to someone else. You people are completely delusional. Should first year pay be higher? Absolutely. No regional FO should have to live on food stamps and struggle to pay bills. But to say that we should start out making CA pay is also completely delusional. If you want to make changes, you have to be reasonable and realistic. And it's not all about the hourly wages. Soft pay makes a huge impact on your bottom line. Fight for trip and duty rigs. Fight to increase first year pay to $35 / hour with 75 to 80 hour minimum guarantee. That would be reasonable.

Not 1 person that negotiated PSA's 2013 contract and the LOA's that followed still work at PSA. Did they do what they had to do to secure their job at mainline? I dunno. Kinda curious that everyone from PSA gets the 190 out of PHL. But the previous MEC got the 757.

Yes, there is a class of pilots who are both at mainline, and the regionals, who are negotiating to the detriment of pilots for their own personal gain. We call this group an MEC.

PSA screwed everybody's chance at a better contract. Brainless group that voted yes. Absolutely brainless. Don't even try to justify anything. PSA is a complete joke in my book. Talk about not having a grasp on anything that is going on in the world. Even if they voted in something gives AAG a single penny in savings, it's still a braindead move. Live with it now.

How are those 9 month upgrades going? LOL. Hope Envoy winds up keeping those 700's. Even if they did vote yes as well, it would still be funny.

I just find coincidences interesting.
And I'd like to stop saying that our Alpa leaders volunteer their time. They are reimbursed. Ok maybe not for their whole time. But when was the last time a pilot got paid from the time they show at the airport? What's good for the goose...

They haven't screwed anyone? As I stated, pilots are getting non-concessionary contracts at several companies. Envoy screwed themselves and ended up with a worse deal than if they had taken the original deal. People are upgrading in less than 9 months and we are hiring DECs, so I'm not sure what your point in jest was about exactly. Where do you work? Or are you one of the army of trolls that lurks this board while sitting in their underwear in mom's basement and plays Microsoft flight sim.