And what exactly would be the negative impact on the profession?

I'm just going to leave this here...

So paying experienced pilots more money is bad, and you're against it because "targeting" other airlines means it may cause that airline to fail.

Yet, just yesterday, you pointed out that when Parker comes back to the table in 2020, the only thing AA pilots will have as leverage is selling out scope, and that you'll be happy to do it.

That seems like a pretty big contradiction to me. Are you in favor of helping pilots at regional airlines, as you claim? Or are you interested in selling out the next generation for scope?

In that case you won't get anyone (well maybe one or two individuals with a boner for American and live in your bases) from here anyway. I'm not commuting or moving for $40 per hour for a regional even with a flow.... probably not even if I got a mainline seniority number that was good to transfer in 5+ years.... nope I've been burned by the flow promise before.... not falling for anything short of a seniority number with class date and furlough rights again.

Are you high???

People make lateral moves every day for a number of different reasons. Many more would do so if they didn't have to start over at year one pay. Then there are the instances when pilots have no choice because their airline folded. Ask anybody who worked for Comair. Or go back even further and talk to pilots from Eastern, Pan American, Braniff, and the list goes on.

And finally, this as with most other things in life has a specific target. A demographic if you will. That target demographic is First Officers. Yes, we get it. You are an uber rich Captain who would never grace anybody with his presence. This isn't for you, ace.

The more you post the more clear it becomes you have some chip on your shoulder in regards to Eagle/AA...you should get together with eaglefly. On the other hand, if you pull your head out of your rear for two seconds you would realize how this works and what the idea is. It would remove the golden handcuffs that all airline pilots are subjected to. If Envoy sets this in motion there is a good chance that other airlines would follow. Maybe not overnight, but soon enough.

Oh, and what's the deal with all these demands you have for coming over? Nobody is asking you to come to Envoy! These Donald Trump moments of yours are priceless:

And this one:

*FACEPALM*

The fact of the matter is that this is simply a proposal from the MEC to the company. Nothing official has been released yet, and I doubt language has even been crafted. The truth is that this will NEVER be approved by AAG. We just spent two years being beat down by Jerry Glass and Dougwiser over a few dollars a block hour. When the union tried to get Endeavor-style bonuses to retain experienced F/O's, Envoy management including Pedro were all for it...and AAG management quickly made it clear it would never happen. "Why should we?" they said. "You have flow to AA! That's all you need to attract new hires!" The ONLY thing AAG cares about is who is the lowest bidder. Paying new-hire pilots anything other than first year pay after sinking 30k into them for training goes against everything we have learned about the "new American" since the hostile takeover. AAG has zero incentive to do this, because the last thing they want is for pilots to think their experience is a valuable commodity.

Personally, I think undermining seniority is wrong. With that being said, what SHOULD happen is ALPA pushing a national seniority list at ALL the ALPA carriers, but we saw their true colors when they willingly approved PSA's back-stabbing of Envoy.

Eaglefly/Thrustlever/Lord Hummugus can ***** all he wants about certain members of our MEC apparently trying to screw other regionals for Envoy's gain, and I might even agree with him to some extent, but the original sin STILL resides with the APA for allowing ANY flying to be done outside their list. They allowed this regional model to exist through their greed. Once the camel was in the tent, they spent decades and countless negociating capital to reclaim scope and mostly failed. The reason the regionals are failing now is because management became far too greedy for the regional business model to succeed. By the time they understand what they've done, the regionals will be dead.

Labor portability is what we truly need in this industry to force airline management to deal with supply and demand once again and raise pilot salaries across the board. This proposal might be a step in the right direction despite the short term pain, but it won't happen at AAG. What's more likely is that within 5-10 years, the regionals simply won't exist anymore.

Exactly what I've said from the beginning. It TARGETS orher carriers junior pilots (AKA poaching) and we know this is under consideration because there are insufficient new-hires from the street. Off course when the pilots at those poached carriers can't replace the poached pilots lured to Envoy, they contract, suffer downgrades and possibly fail.

Winners and losers.

But isn't that pilot's do nowday's..................screw each other to get ahead ?

There are a dozen or so idiots that post this same response of meaninglessness. You cannot refute or defend the issue competantly enough so you resort to gobbledygook claim of loose screws, mental illness and substance abuse.

Learn to discuss/debate properly or buzz off and quit wasting everyone's time including your own.

Cute name !

...........but learn to read.

Jesus, what is it with comprehension skills these days ?

As I've stated in this thread already (but due to the foamy jowls of the angry salesmen, it keeps getting missed), there's nothing wrong with paying more. That's GOOD. The problem lies when pilot groups turn on each other to create an atmosphere of winners and losers.

I won't be happy to do such a thing. I'm saying I will have little choice BUT to do so, i.e., follow the majority next time unlike last time. I'm saying if put to vote attached with more cash (higher rates to match what Delta will surely have then), the majority will. The majority was willing to trade work rules for pay before and so since there's little left to offer next time except scope and a few other things, Parker will know both what button to push and just how the majority will react.

That won't be good for those junior. Sorry. :(

Of course, there should be no complaint from present Envoy pilots/future AA flows as since Envoy ALPA and it appears many of the pilots there have little concern of capitalizing on the misfortune of others if they gain and in fact, go even further by rationalizing CREATING that situation, and so then they should have little argument in the future when the same philosophy is applied to them, yes ?

Nothing personal, just business...........you know, pilots looking out for #1. You can be sure most will rationalize it too.

What's good for the goose, surely must be good for the gander in the world of airline pilots who subscribe to cannibalism. Sadly, I think karma could end being a real ***** in the future and the ultimate irony for those willing to embrace the philosophy of every pilot for himself in whatever form it takes.

Don't blame me, I'm just highlighting the realities of the environment it appears many pilots want and now especially at Envoy with the new "retention and recruitment" scheme that if designed to specifically target other carriers is really just a sugared up poaching scheme that does nothing but weaken us all.

See you on the flip side. ;)

A PERFECT example of the rationalization I'm talking about. A true self-centered huckster will twist his scam in any direction necessary to convince the mark there IS no scam.

A priceless post on the subject if there ever was one. :rolleyes:

So your argument here is that because it won't be approved, the concept wasn't embraced by a union or its pilots ?

:cool:

I'm not arguing against "portability" per se, but pilot groups specifically targeting OTHER pilot groups to gain at their expense. If street hires were available, this scheme would be neither necessary nor proposed, but we no WHY it is. It IS, because Envoy ALPA is worried they'll be a loser without it and they are willing to prevent that even if they must create other losers in the process of trying to win.

...and THIS is where "unionism" is now at in this segment of the industry ?

It's become nothing more then a rotted house filled with rats of various sizes all feeding on each other (or planning to) and it's become quite pathetic.

You keep saying this will have a negative impact on other companies. Why can't you see the more likely possibility of those companies doing something to keep and attract more pilots? You really think this one small insignificent step will be the doom and gloom of certain regional carriers? From what I keep reading that is your whole argument.

I don't think you are ever going to convince people that paying more experienced pilots more than a new CFI is a bad/immoral thing. It's just not going to happen.

You obviously don't get it, do you ?

First of all, there are virtually no street pilots, which is the whole point of luring pilots from elsewhere via a lateral move. Even your chief water salesman admits "staffing is the new currency" and thus the goal is for Envoy to raid others pilots via lateral pay offers as well as lure in what few street hires there are, so that Envoy wins. Considering that, it means others lose, but yes, then they too will be forced to act and likely in the near future, Envoy ALPA's scheme would fail anyway.

The "doom and gloom" may just end up being Envoy's, for without firing that first shot DIRECTLY at others, they won't return fire with a potentially fatal wound to Envoy.

Be careful for what you wish for. :cool:

Very possible. Since you think that way, it seems you've run your course with this discussion and perhaps it's time to stop annoying yourself. You can be sure I'll be watching whatever show Envoy ALPA begins and ultimately, just like in the past, I think eventually they'll have a meeting to say to themselves....."now what ?", and determine what new moves they can do to assist management with a problem they created.

Don't you find it kinda silly (actually disturbing) that your own union is essentially negotiating pay raises for pilots NOT ALREADY ON YOUR SENIORITY LIST ?

You think Parker's going to give YOU a raise along with pilots from other airlines ?

Think again, pal. Why would he need to do that, if THAT aspect doesn't bring more pilots to Envoy (if AAG really wants that anyway) ?

You know what.............."portability" among carriers IS a good idea for Envoy pilots because in the end, it may just be THEM that uses it and it that situation should AAG have fallen for this poorly thought out hair-brained idea, they'll have only provided a pathway for the junior pilots to bail more easily leaving the mid-level and senior suckers to twist in the wind as Envoy shrinks again.

Feel lucky ?

I hope so, because no one cares about a loser, at least at Envoy. ;)

Sounds like a great idea to me. Hopefully it works and it forces my airline to do something more dramatic to attract pilots (maybe better work rules or higher pay). Then envoy can do something else and it goes on and on. Let management whipsaw each other for a change and guess who wins in the end?


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I have no chip on my shoulder about American (I'd rather go there more than Delta or United) Just that this isn't doing much if it's asking me to give up seniority and be a bottom FO on reserve and not actually match what I am paid now. All but bottom FO's that have been stuck at a stagnant place are not getting anything unless they live in DFW or ORD and currently have to commute. I don't see this really undermining the industry, but I also don't see it creating a flood of applications either.

I think the goal is to get all the flying back at the majors.

There will be winners and loosers, that's life.

Regional airlines will fail.

The quicker this happens the better. If we can help collapse one of the crappiest regionals who has been dragging out contract negotiation for a decade and who's CEO is the leading the cause to repeal FTDT, this is a win.

Helping Pilots not having to start over from scratch in today's market allows this to lesson the impact on our brethren. No pilot will be greatly adversely affected. Keep in mind there are currently direct entry captain jobs, and we will hopefully get a deal that will pay FOs what they are currently making.

Stop being such a sissy.

You might want to rethink the flood of applications. While not technically a "flood," the Envoy Chicago job fair was wildly successful, beyond even the most optimistic person's expectations. You'll be hearing about more of these soon as well as other more good news for Envoy.

So where is this ton of flight time headed/already at Envoy? List of lines has been getting shorter every month?

Not everyone as there aren't enough pilots and the timing wouldn't work. Thus, some will win and others will inevitably lose. Hey, it sounds like some of you are willing to take the gamble, so I say step up to the table and place your bet.

I LOVE to watch a good game of cutthroat. :)

Ahh yes, another gambler and a real man at that. :cool:

Looking forward to the show.

Agreed. Get to Envoy quick, before it's too late. There's no risks and you'll be riding a unicorn across the rainbow to the pot of gold with certainty. :rolleyes:

Hey.........you know what, this is kinda fun. It does seem like there are suckers out there so if I help, can I get paid too ?

Holy tl;dr batman!

So far, the Envoy MEC hasn't even released anything concrete to debate the merits on, only a "concept" that was thrown out on Eaglelounge. Myself and others have already brought up the problems with undermining seniority on our own list, so I wouldn't call it "embraced" by a long shot. As for the MEC, it's possible I suppose, but not confirmed. And we all know ALPA national has abandoned all pretense of unionism, so there's that. My point is that this discussion is 95% theoretical at this point.

That is very true. Once again management expects us to fix the problems they have created. If this was being proposed as a "must have" item by the ALPA FFD committee as a negotiation item, it might be different. It is an attempt to poach F/O's, to prop up our own ship. I swore that I wouldn't lie and claim everything is unicorns and rainbows at Envoy like management practically begged us to. Until management is willing to raise pay rates for ALL F/O's, it's just the last few moves of a shell game.

Sounds like the Asian regional/major airline situation coming to American soon to a city near you?

18yrs+ ago, they were hiring 300-400hr commercial multi pilots at Garuda airlines I trained.

Ooops, engine failed, feather and pull power on "good" engine...crash/burn.

No unions involved, but people are being sold the "Dream", which I got out of 18yrs ago due to this same type of nonsense at regionals.

Little pay, crappy bases, shady equipment/tagged pressurization for a week in a plane, flying at 10k feet in FL in hot summer because they won't repair the thing...terrible flight scheduling operations/management, including chief pilot. OH, and the same old song/dance of people looking to get out of dodge/commuter and get to the Majors, like that is some great situation itself??? Shortsighted. So, little pay for regionals, because training people costs them money?!?! Duh....with turn over, and running up hours of training/fuel/check rides, massive turnover...and trying to make a buck, well, your pay will suck big time people. Nothing has changed in 20yrs!!!

And of course ALPA to the rescue sucking up funds from all the pilots, and never doing a damn thing but their own self interests, or interests of those that best feed their pockets.

W....T....F.....else is new in this industry? Nothing!!! Humorous how this is all a repeat performance and mantra from nearly 2 decades past. PILOT shortage...hey, again? Wow, didn't know for nearly 20yrs there is a pilot shortage, did that ever get filled or stop? Yes, when the economy took a downturn and people weren't flying as much. But turn the economy around, and people fly and oh no!!! Pilot shortage again!

Glad I'm not in the business anymore, don't envy any of my friends and their "family" lives they have lead and pain/suffering and broke for 15yrs before it finally starts to pays $$$ to support a family. But still quality of life issues exist. Always will.

Amazing how more things change, they stay the same in the industry.

I do miss the actual flying part of that life though. But the "industry", commuters, and unions destroyed what enthusiasm I had to stick it out...and glad I didn't. What a cluster f*&k the industry still is.

I know guys like myself that quit the business, stuck with it and now at the majors, and some at rental/NetJet type places. The guys all flying talk the same nonsense and crap from 20yrs ago you guys are *****ing about on the forum to this day. Must be a thing to vent frustration to others in your predicament. Misery loves company.

Good luck guys...continue onward on your quest for airline perfection, that doesn't exist and never will BTW.

Get out, or quit whining and live with it until you retire. No other choices.

That last sentence could have been my entire post actually...sorry for the other ranting...haha...

Agreed.

filleroo

It's not too late buddy. You can still come back. They hire anybody with a pulse right now. Need a referral?


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Hey eaglefly, you still haven't given me a response to my question. How is this imitative any different from the CQFO programs offered at various other regionals?

Missed that question.

That scheme has similarities and differences. The only way it can occur is by agreement of the respective union, which is similar, but it doesn't specifically target other carriers pilots which that union leadership knows will benefit them at the expense of weakening others, like targeting pilots from other carriers to move to Envoy during a pilot shortage crisis solely for that purrpose, which is different.

Instead, such a scheme is founded on that airline's inability to advance its own pilots due to qualification deficiencies, which although would result in attracting pilots from other carriers, those pilots come to carrier X with this provision not for a lateral move (especially during a pilot staffing crisis), but an upward move due solely to that carriers pilots inability to accept those positions. That is not akin to deliberately targeting other carriers resources and offering nothing more then what that pilot already financially has (even less in seniority) SOLELY for the purpose of benefitting one carrier deliberately at another's potential peril.

I hear PSA has a new deal and some at Envoy are already criticizing them as likely "lowering the bar" to get whatever (like a true flow), which of course might negatively impact Envoy. Yet, many at Envoy see no problem of lowering the bar by specifically targeting other carriers pilots to transfer to Envoy jeopardizing another carriers viability. Hypocrisy in motion and PSA's contract (whatever it is) isn't even known or suspected of targeting other carriers yet ! All they've apparently done is get a new contract and they're already being criticized by you guessed it...........Envoy pilots. :cool:

What is it with this pilot group ? :confused:

I really haven't seen anyone who is against this idea, even from the presumably "targeted" airlines. Did I miss some posts?

nope, only eaglefly. But he isn't a lunatic on a one man mission. He's an intellect with a well rounded view of, well everything.

Just curious FlameNSky, have you applied elsewhere to try and move on from Envoy? Not to say the flow isn't a good insurance card. I kept it in my back pocket as well but managed to get out to an LCC. Just wondering if you were all in waiting for the flow or were actively pursuing other avenues?

I am but not the LCCs. Not where I want to end up. Delta, AA or United, which ever one calls first, I'm gone.

Fair enough. Just in case you change your mind though, Spirit, Jetblue and to a lesser extent, Frontier, are a step up from any regional. I wouldn't consider Allegiant or Virgin America in the same category necessarily. However, it might not be a bad place to wait it out for the Big 3 depending upon where you are in line for flow.

It's not easy getting hired at an LCC either. I spent lots of time networking and went to an OBAP, WIA, Jetblue job fair and two Spirit fairs before I got the call. After 2 years at NK, I can say far and away it's a major step up. On 3rd year pay and less than a year left to upgrade, I'm making 10 year Eagle CA pay due to our soft credit that's pretty easy to get with a bit of seniority.

NK folks are leaving for United pretty regularly too. That's really the only one I'm hearing much about. Rarely hear about people leaving for Delta and never AA. Although we still have furloughed AA guys here who have to make a decision by March 2016. Many of them are leaning toward staying here.

Beats an ethically bankrupt salesman every day of the week and twice on Sunday's. :p

The Gospel according to eaglefly.
Roger.

Yup, that's my gospel. Let's face it, that ALL you guys have. Nothing of substance, Nothing with foundation. Just flying rocks, splattered mud and empty sales pitches.

That's it. :cool:

What do you have? As you said, your OPINION (imo = in my opinion) that there is a pilot war going on.

Nothing else. And the constant parroting of a small group of salesmen. You would have made much more progress if you made your point and left it - let people debate the merits of it. You sound now like a used car sales man (hey, I didnt even mean to use the word salesman) trying to convince the couple that just walked off the lot that the jalopy that just wouldnt start for the test drive is worth it.

~Eaglefly dubbed "Envoy Salesman"

Snippets, next week envoy will make a huge announcement according to your savior.

The tide is turning!

Good Luck!

I dunno... Most of us have LIVES.

That is the true root of the problem. In your narcissistic arrogant mindset, you are the ultimate authority on all matters and anyone who doesn't agree with you in the problem. Hitler and Manson had the same qualities. Lets hope your life turns out better than theirs.