|
Undermining the profession yet again ?
Just a messenger here, but word has it that Envoy ALPA is considering proposing a new scheme to poach pilots from other regionals by negotiating a contractual provision that allows pilots to come to Envoy at their former regional's pay rate (present pay) ?
Apparently, the concern is because that without sufficient new-hires, Envoy is projected to contract again by next summer resulting in stagnation and downgrades and so it appears another union leadership of arguably questionable ethical standards IMO, may be willing to undermine the regional industry as a whole even further for its own interests by adopting contractual provisions that strengthen their carrier by weakening other carriers. Everyone is under pressure because of the increasingly ominous regional pilot shortage and it would appear now that individual union leaderships may now be willing adopt 'us and them' (AKA "survival of the fittest") cannibal philosophies. Will Envoy ALPA fire the first shot through the hull in the regional pilot industries own boat, thereby beginning the sinking of the ship ? If so, it would appear the rats are now poised to eat each other for survival and this latest possibility is but another example of the complete collapse of regional pilot future and effective unionism. The word at Envoy is that hunger among many pilots there is increasing to near ravenous proportions and they will green light any pilot cannibalism scheme there. This self-centered low-ball move is a bad idea because; - It weakens the industry as a whole by weakening others, many of whose pilots may become unemployed and collateral damage because they are at high enough pay scales that either won't be offered at Envoy under such a possible scheme or are in positions (captains) that cannot be obtained under lateral poaching schemes like this one may be. For every POSSIBLE winner (but no guarantee of payoff) that goes to Envoy, there will be several LOSERS left in the wreckage at the regionals that may fail or contract because of adoption of any new tactics by Envoy ALPA or any other carrier's pilots union such as this. Those carriers pilots may see downgrades and contraction themselves if not outright failure by such an appalling idea. - It undermines Envoy's OWN CBA and PRESENT pilots as it is no different then negotiating pay raises for new-hires (to solve managements self-induced staffing problems), but NOT for present pilots, which ironically is a concept rejected by most unions and even Envoy ALPA in the past. You cannot rationalize this scheme or give it a different title or name and claim it is indeed honorable. Although the probable goal is to prop up Envoy and hopefully correct its apparently present "house of cards" existence, pilots from any other regional would be welcomed, but one pilot mentioned PSA as a desirable target of this new 'pilot-attacking-pilot' idea. This target of course, would be bad for AAG as it extracts the upside for one of its in-house regionals at the expense of another. For AAG, robbing peter to pay paul will not work, it only shifts the problem requiring even more short-term expensive adjustments in the future. It's truly tragic that the regional pilot profession has apparently sunk to levels like this and in the long run, it is bad for the profession. It's sadder that union leaderships in their zeal to save themselves will consider anything and everything regardless of the damage to others or the profession. It's even still sadder the zest that is evident by various union water-carriers for management who have lost themselves so drastically, that they would promote such lunacy and even convince (successfully in many cases) other pilots to adopt an internal pilot attack philosophy to ensure they survive at the expense of others. If such a scheme comes to fruition, it could unleash an all-out internal war by various union leaderships who then feel they have no alternative to protect their turf and the process of more draconian poaching consideration develops resulting in a true 'divide and conquer' reality for the regional pilot industry only one from within. Discuss. |
Did eaglefly say something? I have him on ignore.
|
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971001)
Just a messenger here, but word has it that Envoy ALPA is considering proposing a new scheme to poach pilots from other regionals by negotiating a contractual provision that allows pilots to come to Envoy at their former regionals pay rate (present pay) ?
Apparently, the concern is because that without sufficient new-hires, Envoy is projected to contract again by next summer resulting in stagnation and downgrades and so it appears another union leadership of arguably questionable ethical standards IMO, may be willing to undermine the regional industry as a whole for its own interests by adopting contractual provisions that strengthen their carrier by weakening other carriers. Everyone is under pressure because of the increasingly ominous regional pilot shortage and it would appear now that individual union leaderships may now be willing adopt 'us and them' (AKA "survival of the fittest") cannibal philosophies. The rats now appear to be poised to eat each other for survival and this latest possibility is but another example of the complete collapse of regional pilot future and effective unionism. The word at Envoy is that hunger among many pilots there is increasing to near ravenous proportions and they will green light any pilot cannibalism scheme there. This self-centered low-ball move is a bad idea because; - It weakens the industry as a whole by weakening others, many of whose pilots may become unemployed and collateral damage because they are at high enough pay scales that either won't be offered at Envoy or are in positions (captains) that cannot be obtained under lateral poaching schemes like this one may be. For every POSSIBLE winner (but no guarantee of payoff) that goes to Envoy, there will be several LOSERS left in the wreckage at the regionals that may fail or contract because of adoption of any new tactics by Envoy ALPA or any other carrier's pilots union. Those carriers pilots may see downgrades and contraction themselves if not outright failure by such an appalling idea. - It undermines Envoy's OWN CBA and PRESENT pilots as it is no different then negotiating pay raises for new-hires (to solve managements self-induced staffing problems), but NOT for present pilots, which ironically is a concept rejected by most unions and even Envoy ALPA in the past. You cannot rationalize this scheme or give it a different title or name and claim it is indeed honorable. Although the probable goal is to prop up Envoy and hopefully correct its apparently present "house of cards" existence, pilots from any other regional would be welcomed, but one pilot mentioned PSA as a desirable target of this new 'pilot-attacking-pilot' idea. This target of course, would be bad for AAG as it extracts the upside for one of its in-house regionals at the expense of another. For AAG, robbing peter to pay paul will not work, it only shifts the problem requiring even more short-term expensive adjustments in the future. It's truly tragic that the regional pilot profession has apparently sunk to levels like this and in the long run, it is bad for the profession. It's sadder that union leaderships in their zeal to save themselves will consider anything and everything regardless of the damage to others or the profession. It's even still sadder the zest that is evident by various union water-carriers for management who have lost themselves so drastically, that they would promote such lunacy and even convince (successfully in many cases) other pilots to adopt an internal pilot attack philosophy to ensure they survive at the expense of others. If such a scheme comes to fruition, it could unleash an all-out internal war by various union leaderships who then feel they have no alternative to protect their turf and the process of more draconian poaching consideration develops resulting in a true 'divide and conquer' reality for the regional pilot industry only one from within. Discuss. You are like the scorned ex-wife. Every chance you can ybe u want to blast away at "Eagle/Envoy". Somehow you have de-humanized it even but the truth is you are attacking the livelihood of thousands who have never done a thing to you, without wanton regard to the outcome. Everyone that reads your drivel(and there are not many - even I skip past your BS most of time) sees your bias toward Eagle. It's obvious eagle hurt poor diddums in the past and somehow this is your vengeance. You have a screw loose. |
Lets keep the status quo by making it a financial burden for pilots to move from one carrier to another! Hey, if I had to take a pay cut to move between carriers, so does everyone else. Poo on Alpa for trying to change that.
- What I am hearing from Eaglefly |
Originally Posted by PilotCrusader
(Post 1971006)
(Yawn)
You are like the scorned ex-wife. Every chance you can ybe u want to blast away at "Eagle/Envoy". Somehow you have de-humanized it even but the truth is you are attacking the livelihood of thousands who have never done a thing to you, without wanton regard to the outcome. Everyone that reads your drivel(and there are not many - even I skip past your BS most of time) sees your bias toward Eagle. It's obvious eagle hurt poor diddums in the past and somehow this is your vengeance. You have a screw loose. ....or, if you CANNOT say that, the only thing you CAN say is ^^this^^ ? That's not saying much. :cool: |
Originally Posted by snippercr
(Post 1971007)
Lets keep the status quo by making it a financial burden for pilots to move from one carrier to another! Hey, if I had to take a pay cut to move between carriers, so does everyone else. Poo on Alpa for trying to change that.
- What I am hearing from Eaglefly 'Carrier-hopping' or the urge or compunction to do so is EXACTLY one of the major reasons the regional industry is in dire-straits. You know what is ironic ? It's ironic many of you vehemently criticized other carriers for poaching Envoy pilots in the past and see where that leads ? It leads to the rationalization for 'divide and conquer' schemes adopted by dopey myopic pilots that really just weaken themselves by weakening others. No strong army was ever built on a philosophy of bayonetting your buddy in the back to have a better rifle. Apparently, nowadays in this segment of the industry, it is. :cool: EVERYONE will lose because of it. |
AAG is actually considering this? When AAG was AMR, before there was a flow, AMR objected to a flow because of the number of training events created by flowing pilots from Eagle to mainline.
Now, they want to hire pilots at their current pay rate, generate multiple training events knowing said pilot will likely flow to mainline in the future or go to another major/LCC? They want to spend more money? This doesn't pass the smell test...yet! It could. After all, airline management teams have never been accused of making sound, logical business decisions when it comes to the daily operation of an airline. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971014)
That's one of the rationalization I'm hearing. :cool:
'Carrier-hopping' or the urge or compunction to do so is EXACTLY one of the major reasons the regional industry is in dire-straits. You know what is ironic ? It's ironic many of you vehemently criticized other carriers for poaching Envoy pilots in the past and see where that leads ? It leads to the rationalization for 'divide and conquer' schemes adopted by dopey myopic pilots that really just weaken themselves by weakening others. No strong army was ever built on a philosophy of bayonetting your buddy in the back to have a better rifle. Apparently, nowadays in this segment of the industry, it is. :cool: EVERYONE will lose because of it. |
Originally Posted by Slim11
(Post 1971015)
AAG is actually considering this? When AAG was AMR, before there was a flow, AMR objected to a flow because of the number of training events created by flowing pilots from Eagle to mainline.
Originally Posted by Slim11
(Post 1971015)
Now, they want to hire pilots at their current pay rate, generate multiple training events knowing said pilot will likely flow to mainline in the future or go to another major/LCC? They want to spend more money? This doesn't pass the smell test...yet!
It could. After all, airline management teams have never been accused of making sound, logical business decisions when it comes to the daily operation of an airline. It's a certified nut house, if you ask me. |
Originally Posted by snippercr
(Post 1971018)
So what do you suggest? Leave the status quo? "Pay your dues!"
In fact, considering that, why are you even talking to me ? :confused: Shouldn't you be on the other threads selling Envoy or better yet.........go back to sleep. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971024)
I'd suggest learning from the past and not proposing schemes to strengthen yourself at the expense or downfall of others, but when have you ever agreed or even listened to anything I've said ?
In fact, considering that, why are you even talking to me ? :confused: Shouldn't you be on the other threads selling Envoy or better yet.........go back to sleep. |
Originally Posted by Jersdawg
(Post 1971028)
Do you have any suggestions?
If this occurs and you're too invested in another carrier to join a theoretical conga line to Utopia, then I'd suggest your union get together with their management and cook up whatever deal is necessary to prevent Envoy ALPA or anyone else from breaking your back, because your career may be a serious risk in the future if an 'every pilot for himself' reality breaks out in the regional industry as pilot poaching schemes ultimately are......or you could watch that show and cross your fingers you don't take a fatal wound because you acted too late to effectively protect yourself. If you're from Envoy.................well, it sounds like there may be nothing left to do if this scheme occurs except hope it works long enough to get you to wherever you want to get to, but of course, THAT is the whole point of such a scheme for those who may be considering it. |
So envoy Alpa is attempting massive recruiting for envoy?
What happens if that effort fails? No flow? Good Luck! |
So RJ Pilot mysteriously vanishes from the message board and you suddenly up your troll game.
There is no winning here... |
Originally Posted by snippercr
(Post 1971063)
So RJ Pilot mysteriously vanishes from the message board and you suddenly up your troll game.
There is no winning here... If it IS true and it leads to a 'pilot war' between regional carriers, how is that a GOOD thing, at least for those NOT at the top of the Envoy pilot pyramid ? |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971001)
Just a messenger here, but word has it that Envoy ALPA is considering proposing a new scheme to poach pilots from other regionals by negotiating a contractual provision that allows pilots to come to Envoy at their former regional's pay rate (present pay) ?
Apparently, the concern is because that without sufficient new-hires, Envoy is projected to contract again by next summer resulting in stagnation and downgrades and so it appears another union leadership of arguably questionable ethical standards IMO, may be willing to undermine the regional industry as a whole even further for its own interests by adopting contractual provisions that strengthen their carrier by weakening other carriers. Everyone is under pressure because of the increasingly ominous regional pilot shortage and it would appear now that individual union leaderships may now be willing adopt 'us and them' (AKA "survival of the fittest") cannibal philosophies. Will Envoy ALPA fire the first shot through the hull in the regional pilot industries own boat, thereby beginning the sinking of the ship ? If so, it would appear the rats are now poised to eat each other for survival and this latest possibility is but another example of the complete collapse of regional pilot future and effective unionism. The word at Envoy is that hunger among many pilots there is increasing to near ravenous proportions and they will green light any pilot cannibalism scheme there. This self-centered low-ball move is a bad idea because; - It weakens the industry as a whole by weakening others, many of whose pilots may become unemployed and collateral damage because they are at high enough pay scales that either won't be offered at Envoy under such a possible scheme or are in positions (captains) that cannot be obtained under lateral poaching schemes like this one may be. For every POSSIBLE winner (but no guarantee of payoff) that goes to Envoy, there will be several LOSERS left in the wreckage at the regionals that may fail or contract because of adoption of any new tactics by Envoy ALPA or any other carrier's pilots union such as this. Those carriers pilots may see downgrades and contraction themselves if not outright failure by such an appalling idea. - It undermines Envoy's OWN CBA and PRESENT pilots as it is no different then negotiating pay raises for new-hires (to solve managements self-induced staffing problems), but NOT for present pilots, which ironically is a concept rejected by most unions and even Envoy ALPA in the past. You cannot rationalize this scheme or give it a different title or name and claim it is indeed honorable. Although the probable goal is to prop up Envoy and hopefully correct its apparently present "house of cards" existence, pilots from any other regional would be welcomed, but one pilot mentioned PSA as a desirable target of this new 'pilot-attacking-pilot' idea. This target of course, would be bad for AAG as it extracts the upside for one of its in-house regionals at the expense of another. For AAG, robbing peter to pay paul will not work, it only shifts the problem requiring even more short-term expensive adjustments in the future. It's truly tragic that the regional pilot profession has apparently sunk to levels like this and in the long run, it is bad for the profession. It's sadder that union leaderships in their zeal to save themselves will consider anything and everything regardless of the damage to others or the profession. It's even still sadder the zest that is evident by various union water-carriers for management who have lost themselves so drastically, that they would promote such lunacy and even convince (successfully in many cases) other pilots to adopt an internal pilot attack philosophy to ensure they survive at the expense of others. If such a scheme comes to fruition, it could unleash an all-out internal war by various union leaderships who then feel they have no alternative to protect their turf and the process of more draconian poaching consideration develops resulting in a true 'divide and conquer' reality for the regional pilot industry only one from within. Discuss. I'll let you in on a secret. This pilot shortage may give ALPA the opportunity to do just that. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971072)
You Envoy salesmen are widely known for playing the "troll" card inappropriately when your product is questioned. I'll ask again........are you saying my post regarding what Envoy ALPA may be considering is NOT true ?
If it IS true and it leads to a 'pilot war' between regional carriers, how is that a GOOD thing, at least for those NOT at the top of the Envoy pilot pyramid ? |
Hey eaglefly,
Lay all the cards out on the table. Tell everyone here how you flowed to AA with no interview, and until that happened you sat at Eagle fat, dumb, and happy for years. Why, oh why in all those years did you never leave the Regionals? Why did you never get hired at Delta, or United, or Us Air, or Northwest, or Southwest, or Air Tran, or anywhere?? Was it because you never applied? Hmmm..... Or was it because you did apply and just couldn't get hired? Hmmm..... Which one is worse? Either way...the only reason you are even at any mainline right now is because you came to Eagle, flowed to AA WITH NO INTERVIEW, and now all of a sudden you think you are the Ben Affleck of the airline industry. Give us a break, wash out. Go work on your garden or stalk the flight attendants in D terminal as usual. |
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1971092)
Hey eaglefly,
Lay all the cards out on the table. Tell everyone here how you flowed to AA with no interview, and until that happened you sat at Eagle fat, dumb, and happy for years. If it's such a shameful thing, why are you busting a nut to become JUST LIKE ME ? :eek:
Originally Posted by sKYVECTOR
(Post 1971092)
Why, oh why in all those years did you never leave the Regionals? Why did you never get hired at Delta, or United, or Us Air, or Northwest, or Southwest, or Air Tran, or anywhere??
Wast because you never applied/ Hmmm.... Or was it because you did apply and just couldn't get hired? Hmmm..... Which one is worse? Either way...the only reason you are even at any mainline right now is because you came to Eagle, flowed to AA WITH NO INTERVIEW, and now all of a sudden you think you are the Ben Affleck of the airline industry. Give us a break, wash out. Go work on your garden or stalk the flight attendants in D terminal as usual. Hey kid, I can do this all day long if you so choose, at least until it bores me. When you have something of substance to discuss or refute, let me know and I'll take it under advisement. Sorry, but your debating skills suck. :rolleyes: |
Still waiting for one of the Envoy salesmen to correct the errors in my first post. So far, only attempts to hijack this thread away from the topic which...........well, is likely the point. When you can't hide, you run.
|
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971104)
Where you been, babe ? Everyone and his cousin knows about my flow-thru status. Nothing to be ashamed of and totally irrelevant, but it does pose a question.
If it's such a shameful thing, why are you busting a nut to become JUST LIKE ME ? :eek: Perhaps the stupidest question in the history of this forum (but not surprising considering the source :cool:) aside from being irrelevant. We both know you haven't the faintest idea of my past and since you have no valid rebuttal of my comments all that's left to do now is throw mud in the hope it annoys the target. Hey kid, I can do this all day long if you so choose, at least until it bores me. When you have something of substance to discuss or refute, let me know and I'll take it under advisement. Sorry, but your debating skills suck. :rolleyes: Answer the question: In all those years at the Regional level, why did you never leave? I mean, it's not like you were a Regional pilot for a short time. It approached almost two decades. So answer the question, hot shot: Did you never apply to anywhere else? Or did you apply and just couldn't get hired? Which one was it? Because it's one of the two. You're tactic of trying to deflect this issue until somebody gives up is hilarious. But you won't get off that easy, sweetheart. If you are going to swing your johnson around the Regional forum as much as you do you need to pony up and take responsibility for yourself. So answer the question. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971072)
You Envoy salesmen are widely known for playing the "troll" card inappropriately when your product is questioned. I'll ask again........are you saying my post regarding what Envoy ALPA may be considering is NOT true ?
If it IS true and it leads to a 'pilot war' between regional carriers, how is that a GOOD thing, at least for those NOT at the top of the Envoy pilot pyramid ? Your assumption about a pilot war is pretty extreme. Take any other profession - teaching for example. A person is a teacher for 4 years and has 15 credit hours plus. They are paid on a grid similar to us: go to years of experience, go to credit hours plus and you get that schools contractual rate of pay. The following year they go to 5th year pay. Let's say enrollment declines and the neighborhood isnt as good as it once was. This teacher goes to another school - they come in with 5 years of work and their 15 credit hours plus. Their rate of pay is THAT schools grid for experience (5 years) and credit hours plus (15). They do not start over again. Is there a "Teacher war"? Well, there is competition - some schools are more desirable to work at than others. If it was up to some, they would rather teach in an affluent suburban school than Chicago Public School system. Let's take a Mesa pilot for example today. They live in Chicago but after Mesa closed the chicago base, are forced to commute to IAH. Mesa has, as most would agree, some of the lowest rates of pay and work rules. As a result, coupled with commuting this pilot has pretty low QOL. Now, after 3 years he wishes to come to Envoy because the base, work rules and ability to NOT have to reset his rate of pay. He no longer commutes, actually gets a RAISE(3rd year Mesa is 32/hr, 3rd year Envoy is 37/hr) and has better QOL. Did this "harm" Mesa? Well, using your definition it did - because one less pilot at Mesa hurts their ability to staff their flying. However, using your argument, a Mesa CA going over to United also hurts the industry and contributes to your pilot war. I really cant see how one carrier offering the ability to bring in credit for experience "harms" the industry any more than it is now. Let's take the imaginary Mesa pilot for example. Has a wife and kids and a mortgage on a reasonable property. He wants to spend more time at home like when he was not commuting to IAH. However, under the status quo he would take a pay cut for 2 years. While his time at home is valuable, that doesnt pay the bills. I honestly see offering credit for experience as being a great advancement to the regional industry and moving us more in line with all other fields out there. But hey, if you need to call me a company man, salesman, cheerleader, etc...well, most people who know me would disagree. You wouldnt hurt my feelings calling me that. |
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1971109)
DEFLECT, DEFLECT, DEFLECT!!!
Answer the question: In all those years at the Regional level, why did you never leave? I mean, it's not like you were a Regional pilot for a short time. It approached almost two decades. ...and considering the thread topic, itself a DEFLECTION, DEFLECTION, DEFLECTION !!!
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1971109)
So answer the question, hot shot: Did you never apply to anywhere else? Or did you apply and just couldn't get hired?
Originally Posted by Skyvector
(Post 1971109)
Which one was it? Because it's one of the two. You are tactic of trying to deflect this issue until somebody gives up is hilarious.
But you won't get off that easy, sweetheart. If you are going to swing your johnson around the Regional forum as much as you do you need to pony up and take responsibility for yourself. So answer the question. Sorry, but you'll just have to suck eggs on that try. I'd get used to failure, if I were you. |
Originally Posted by snippercr
(Post 1971111)
You're just as quick to play the "salesman" card when people disagree with you...Or post anything about envoy. At all.
Your assumption about a pilot war is pretty extreme. Take any other profession - teaching for example. A person is a teacher for 4 years and has 15 credit hours plus. They are paid on a grid similar to us: go to years of experience, go to credit hours plus and you get that schools contractual rate of pay. The following year they go to 5th year pay. Let's say enrollment declines and the neighborhood isnt as good as it once was. This teacher goes to another school - they come in with 5 years of work and their 15 credit hours plus. Their rate of pay is THAT schools grid for experience (5 years) and credit hours plus (15). They do not start over again. Is there a "Teacher war"? Well, there is competition - some schools are more desirable to work at than others. If it was up to some, they would rather teach in an affluent suburban school than Chicago Public School system. Let's take a Mesa pilot for example today. They live in Chicago but after Mesa closed the chicago base, are forced to commute to IAH. Mesa has, as most would agree, some of the lowest rates of pay and work rules. As a result, coupled with commuting this pilot has pretty low QOL. Now, after 3 years he wishes to come to Envoy because the base, work rules and ability to NOT have to reset his rate of pay. He no longer commutes, actually gets a RAISE(3rd year Mesa is 32/hr, 3rd year Envoy is 37/hr) and has better QOL. Did this "harm" Mesa? Well, using your definition it did - because one less pilot at Mesa hurts their ability to staff their flying. However, using your argument, a Mesa CA going over to United also hurts the industry and contributes to your pilot war. I really cant see how one carrier offering the ability to bring in credit for experience "harms" the industry any more than it is now. Let's take the imaginary Mesa pilot for example. Has a wife and kids and a mortgage on a reasonable property. He wants to spend more time at home like when he was not commuting to IAH. However, under the status quo he would take a pay cut for 2 years. While his time at home is valuable, that doesnt pay the bills. I honestly see offering credit for experience as being a great advancement to the regional industry and moving us more in line with all other fields out there. But hey, if you need to call me a company man, salesman, cheerleader, etc...well, most people who know me would disagree. You wouldnt hurt my feelings calling me that. Man, I hope you guys get more then $96,000 this year, because you're slipping badly. ;) |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971115)
So, the short answer is that my first post is correct. All I see so far from you guessed it..................ONLY the Envoy sales team is rationalization and deflection.
Man, I hope you guys get more then $96,000 this year, because you're slipping badly. ;) I don't get paid 96,000 a year. Why does that matter? Actually I think that's a great idea. Make a poll asking if an airline allowing a new hire to bring in credit for rate of pay purposes only: Strongly hurts the industry as a whole Slightly hurts the industry as a whole Does not hurt or benefit the industry as a whole Slightly benefits the industry as a whole Strongly benefits the industry as a whole Try to not bias the question but I would be very interested in seeing the results. That removes the "Envoy salesman" attribute. Seriously, what happened to RJ Pilot? |
Originally Posted by snippercr
(Post 1971117)
Maybe because no one else agrees with you?
LOL !
Originally Posted by snippercr
(Post 197117)
I don't get paid 96,000 a year. Why does that matter?
Answer to both; Absolutely nothing. |
Originally Posted by snippercr
(Post 1971117)
Seriously, what happened to RJ Pilot?
|
How is the ability to go to another regional without starting over at year one pay a bad thing? This levels up the competition between regionals vying for pilots. This means that the regionals have to try harder to attract and retain talent. This eliminates one of the biggest reasons pilots decide to stick it out at one company instead of starting over somewhere else. This is a good thing and it will hopefully force other regionals to implement similar policies, or offer retention packages or some other incentive to combat it. No other industry has the ridiculous pay structure we currently experience in this profession. This is a step in the right direction.
|
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971126)
We had a GV ILS contest down in the basement last night and I lost. I'm posting from the backyard doghouse and plus he kept all the Cheetos since he one. It sucks being a bitter, angry old man who can't even beat RJ in an ILS contest anymore to say nothing of not being able to be hired by a major. :(
/Done trolling
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971121)
Now you are the voice of the forum ?
LOL ! I'm sure individually don't, but I wasn't referring to you individually. :rolleyes: Why does my individual career history matter in regards to the question of what Envoy ALPA may be about to do ? Answer to both; Absolutely nothing. Also, I agree - your career history has NOTHING to do with this. That is why I just tried to answer your questions and topics in the first post as academically as possible. |
Just sounds like more money being pushed into the market, sounds good. Everyone else will have to do it as well just like the signing bonus. Regionals getting too expensive yet? Thats a shame maybe its time to bring the flying back in house?
|
Originally Posted by snippercr
(Post 1971117)
Seriously, what happened to RJ Pilot? Good Luck! |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971001)
Just a messenger here, but word has it that Envoy ALPA is considering proposing a new scheme to poach pilots from other regionals by negotiating a contractual provision that allows pilots to come to Envoy at their former regional's pay rate (present pay) ?
Apparently, the concern is because that without sufficient new-hires, Envoy is projected to contract again by next summer resulting in stagnation and downgrades and so it appears another union leadership of arguably questionable ethical standards IMO, may be willing to undermine the regional industry as a whole even further for its own interests by adopting contractual provisions that strengthen their carrier by weakening other carriers. Everyone is under pressure because of the increasingly ominous regional pilot shortage and it would appear now that individual union leaderships may now be willing adopt 'us and them' (AKA "survival of the fittest") cannibal philosophies. Will Envoy ALPA fire the first shot through the hull in the regional pilot industries own boat, thereby beginning the sinking of the ship ? If so, it would appear the rats are now poised to eat each other for survival and this latest possibility is but another example of the complete collapse of regional pilot future and effective unionism. The word at Envoy is that hunger among many pilots there is increasing to near ravenous proportions and they will green light any pilot cannibalism scheme there. This self-centered low-ball move is a bad idea because; - It weakens the industry as a whole by weakening others, many of whose pilots may become unemployed and collateral damage because they are at high enough pay scales that either won't be offered at Envoy under such a possible scheme or are in positions (captains) that cannot be obtained under lateral poaching schemes like this one may be. For every POSSIBLE winner (but no guarantee of payoff) that goes to Envoy, there will be several LOSERS left in the wreckage at the regionals that may fail or contract because of adoption of any new tactics by Envoy ALPA or any other carrier's pilots union such as this. Those carriers pilots may see downgrades and contraction themselves if not outright failure by such an appalling idea. - It undermines Envoy's OWN CBA and PRESENT pilots as it is no different then negotiating pay raises for new-hires (to solve managements self-induced staffing problems), but NOT for present pilots, which ironically is a concept rejected by most unions and even Envoy ALPA in the past. You cannot rationalize this scheme or give it a different title or name and claim it is indeed honorable. Although the probable goal is to prop up Envoy and hopefully correct its apparently present "house of cards" existence, pilots from any other regional would be welcomed, but one pilot mentioned PSA as a desirable target of this new 'pilot-attacking-pilot' idea. This target of course, would be bad for AAG as it extracts the upside for one of its in-house regionals at the expense of another. For AAG, robbing peter to pay paul will not work, it only shifts the problem requiring even more short-term expensive adjustments in the future. It's truly tragic that the regional pilot profession has apparently sunk to levels like this and in the long run, it is bad for the profession. It's sadder that union leaderships in their zeal to save themselves will consider anything and everything regardless of the damage to others or the profession. It's even still sadder the zest that is evident by various union water-carriers for management who have lost themselves so drastically, that they would promote such lunacy and even convince (successfully in many cases) other pilots to adopt an internal pilot attack philosophy to ensure they survive at the expense of others. If such a scheme comes to fruition, it could unleash an all-out internal war by various union leaderships who then feel they have no alternative to protect their turf and the process of more draconian poaching consideration develops resulting in a true 'divide and conquer' reality for the regional pilot industry only one from within. Discuss. I haven't read any other post so I don't know if it's been said, but I don't see any problem with an MEC negotiating better pay and or work rules in order to entice pilots. I do see a problem in an MEC negotiating concessions of any kind in exchange for a fleet commitment or other carrot. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Crawl
(Post 1971128)
How is the ability to go to another regional without starting over at year one pay a bad thing? This levels up the competition between regionals vying for pilots. This means that the regionals have to try harder to attract and retain talent. This eliminates one of the biggest reasons pilots decide to stick it out at one company instead of starting over somewhere else. This is a good thing and it will hopefully force other regionals to implement similar policies, or offer retention packages or some other incentive to combat it. No other industry has the ridiculous pay structure we currently experience in this profession. This is a step in the right direction.
Look, everyone knows (or should) that the street pilots for the regionals simply doesn't exist in any meaningful numbers and so the only thing to do is get pilots that already exist. Problem is that whomever relinquishes pilots will not get them replaced by street pilots and so that means these carriers will contract. The equation now is one of a shrinking overall pilot base and the ONLY equation for the future is SHIFTING of that shrinking base. That means some will win and others will lose. One noteworthy Envoy water mule is known to say "pilots are the new currency" (he didn't make that up though, just parrots it) and while that is true, the valuation of that currency is a shrinking base. Airlines cannot print pilots like the US Government does Federal Reserve Notes (dollars). So, the question is who will be the winners and who will be the losers ? If say for example, AAG decides to agree to a universal flow-thru for all pilots at their wholly-owneds and pilots from non AAG WO's (any other regional) come flocking, that means some of those carriers won't make it. There simply is no one to replace them from the street as if there were, poaching schemes wouldn't be necessary. Those left behind like the captains waiting for a major to call or those planning on a career there are now hitched to a dying carrier (which is what Envoy ALPA is trying to thwart if they pursue poaching) who cannot meet its goals, it's stock price tumbles and like RAH is on the brink. They get to start over or head for another career path. Once that fire is lit and some carriers become the "go to" carriers, it means hundreds if not thousands of present regional pilots WILL become the LOSERS. Unless there are sufficient street-hires to keep THEIR engine running, they become casualties in a pilot war. There ARE NOT street pilots to prevent an "everyone wins" ideal. So, are you ready to step up to the Roulette wheel and bet on Black or Red ? Only one color pays off, they both do not. Also, what may be the winning color in 2016, may become the loser again in 2017 and what do you do then...........jump yet again to what LOOKS to be a winning color at that time ? This will lead to a very unstable and precarious existence as each carrier then morphs itself perhaps repeatedly and frequently in the ever uncertain game of trying to survive as throngs of three-striped lemmings migrate left and right on the faintest whim of avoiding a cliff. The four-striped lemmings won't chance it and will fly or crash where they are cursing this existence if its the latter. Be careful for what you wish for and think it through before selecting a color. Personally, I think those interested in setting up this segment of the industry to look like a Las Vegas casino are seriously myopic and short-sided. I could say that it sure would be fun to watch though as yet another generation of airline pilots destroys themselves in new ways just like past generations with scope and RJ's. But, if you must, you must and quite frankly, I think it's in our nature to act against ourselves, but I digress........... If this casino gets set up, all I can say is good luck at the table, but remember............the house eventually always wins. ;) |
Originally Posted by Nevets
(Post 1971142)
I haven't read any other post so I don't know if it's been said, but I don't see any problem with an MEC negotiating better pay and or work rules in order to entice pilots. I do see a problem in an MEC negotiating concessions of any kind in exchange for a fleet commitment or other carrot.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This is the same thing only rationalized with a different wrapper. In fact though, it's potential for destruction is FAR worse then the former ideal which only hurt the pilots AT the carrier for the most part. The "carrot" is still in use, only now that carrot comes from someone else's garden and what happens to that garden should it become decimated as a result ? Let's hope YOU don't end up a resident of one of those gardens in the future. |
Originally Posted by Crawl
(Post 1971128)
How is the ability to go to another regional without starting over at year one pay a bad thing? This levels up the competition between regionals vying for pilots. This means that the regionals have to try harder to attract and retain talent. This eliminates one of the biggest reasons pilots decide to stick it out at one company instead of starting over somewhere else. This is a good thing and it will hopefully force other regionals to implement similar policies, or offer retention packages or some other incentive to combat it. No other industry has the ridiculous pay structure we currently experience in this profession. This is a step in the right direction.
The RLA severely enhances management's position by severely limiting labor's ability to fight. If we had the ability to move to a different company without starting completely over, it would help level the playing field by making it much easier to say "f--- off management" whenever they try to not negotiate fairly (like in RAH's current case over the last 8 years) or shut down bases causing one to uproot their lives (like in Envoys case of going from 7 bases to 2). Because of this, I doubt upper level AAG management will go for the scheme despite what the Envoy men in the middle want. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971146)
Ask them why then in the past they wouldn't negotiate pay raises for new-hires only ?
This is the same thing only rationalized with a different wrapper. In fact though, it's potential for destruction is FAR worse then the former ideal which only hurt the pilots AT the carrier for the most part. The "carrot" is still in use, only now that carrot comes from someone else's garden and what happens to that garden should it become decimated as a result ? Let's hope YOU don't end up a resident of one of those gardens in the future. Think about it, how does it go against the contract when offering a potential 4 year RAH FO a 4 year Envoy rate? He's at the bottom of the list. It doesn't make any difference as he still has to climb the seniority ladder as the rest of us did! I'm not saying that this isn't under consideration, it is. There are just a lot of variables that need to be looked at before proceeding. |
Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw
(Post 1971153)
Very well said. This is the first step to creating job portability. As I understand it, the proposal is for carrying over years of service for pay only, not for bidding or upgrade. Hopefully other carriers follow suite, so it helps to increase total QOL and pay within the regional industry.
The RLA severely enhances management's position by severely limiting labor's ability to fight. If we had the ability to move to a different company without starting completely over, it would help level the playing field by making it much easier to say "f--- off management" whenever they try to not negotiate fairly (like in RAH's current case over the last 8 years) or shut down bases causing one to uproot their lives (like in Envoys case of going from 7 bases to 2). Because of this, I doubt upper level AAG management will go for the scheme despite what the Envoy men in the middle want. I think Envoy ALPA wants to sell this concept on the fact they can be first and thus become the powerhouse BEFORE other carriers realize they're screwed and act too late. Of course, what if Delta and UAL DO see the threat act very quickly (let's face it, Delta is shrewd and smart) and then what ? Envoy's ALPA possible pyramid scheme foundation of poaching fails and it is Envoy that goes back to contraction and despair. I think THAT is the sales pitch. It seems everyone is selling now at Envoy, I guess even to each other now. :cool: |
Originally Posted by Cujo664
(Post 1971154)
We wouldn't negotiate pay raises for new hires only because there were 3000 other pilots on the seniority list that would need a raise as well.
Originally Posted by Cujo664
(Post 1971154)
Think about it, how does it go against the contract when offering a potential 4 year RAH FO a 4 year Envoy rate? He's at the bottom of the list. It doesn't make any difference as he still has to climb the seniority ladder as the rest of us did!
Think about it.
Originally Posted by Cujo664
(Post 1971154)
I'm not saying that this isn't under consideration, it is. There are just a lot of variables that need to be looked at before proceeding.
|
Undermining the profession yet again ?
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971146)
Ask them why then in the past they wouldn't negotiate pay raises for new-hires only ?
This is the same thing only rationalized with a different wrapper. In fact though, it's potential for destruction is FAR worse then the former ideal which only hurt the pilots AT the carrier for the most part. The "carrot" is still in use, only now that carrot comes from someone else's garden and what happens to that garden should it become decimated as a result ? Let's hope YOU don't end up a resident of one of those gardens in the future. Look, the market dictates that airlines need to compete for pilots. I don't have a problem with that. If my regional goes out of business, oh well. I have a plan B and feel bad for those who don't (but should've). I only have a problem with an MEC agreeing to concessions in direct exchange for a fleet commitment. That's just my opinion and it happens to be different than yours. Why do you even care anyway? Is not the West's supposed trifecta more of a concern to your current situation? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1971159)
"Portability" might be a great idea depending on the details, but for it to work for ALL pilots, there cannot be any "losers" per se in the equation. As long as there are virtually no replacement pilots available, that means there WILL be losers and some MAJOR losers. TRUE portability would mean lateral moves for any pilot including seniority. Without that and coupled with no replacements, it becomes not only roulette, but Russian roulette.
I think Envoy ALPA wants to sell this concept on the fact they can be first and thus become the powerhouse BEFORE other carriers realize they're screwed and act too late. Of course, what if Delta and UAL DO see the threat act very quickly (let's face it, Delta is shrewd and smart) and then what ? Envoy's ALPA possible pyramid scheme foundation of poaching fails and it is Envoy that goes back to contraction and despair. I think THAT is the sales pitch. It seems everyone is selling now at Envoy, I guess even to each other now. :cool: I said it was a first step. Currently, there are few pilots in the pipeline due to the crap pay and QOL at the regionals not making the high cost of earning all needed ratings worth while. Traditionally, if you weren't a military pilot, the majority of pilots gain experience trying to get that major airline job at the regionals. If job portability would come to fruition at the regional airlines, it would also bolster greater pay and QOL overall. This in turn might help some to choose the piloting profession again. It by no means could ever be an overnight scenario, it's a long play, but it is certainly better than being stuck at an unstable company in an unstable industry with no hope of improvements and hope it doesn't blow up in your face. Without a doubt, there is going to be contraction in the regional sector, and as such, there will be casualties as some carriers cannot survive. At least you won't be the "MAJOR loser" if you do not have to start over from square one again. |
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