It's because Comutair (management) doesn't care if you lose your ticket for awhile or have an accident and die for that matter. You are replaceable. Deice fluid costs money and time. It's just business and sometimes businessmen have to take their (hull) losses. (Of course the airline executives expect to be deiced at any hint of freezing precip when they happen to be aboard.) Besides, that's why the company carries insurance, to make up for the losses incurred by those inept pilots. (They are labor remember.)

 

Lame excuse. "I'm kinda new" won't cut it with the accident investigation team. It also won't cut it with the ghost-riding FAA inspector who is sitting in a window seat over your wing watching the snow accumulate on control surfaces prior to takeoff.

If you think deice is required tell the Captain, "We'll need to be de-iced." DON"T ASK HIM, TELL HIM. Make an affirmative statement of the course of action YOU would take if YOU were the PIC. Any worthwhile Captain will listen to your opinion and make the correct decision. If he doesn't agree with you he should tell you why he is making the decision to not deice.

I'm not suggesting every time an FO thinks deice is required you will get it. It's ultimately the Captain's decision. If you feel strongly and the Captain still says "No Deice", then show him the frost/snow on the aircraft, quote the FAR that states "no aircraft shall takeoff with snow, ice, .....". It might even get to the point of telling the Captain you will be filing a NASA report after landing due to a perceived risk to safety or you may even need to refuse to fly the leg if it's really bad. I've never had it get that extreme in a cockpit. Most times the Captain will take the most conservative approach. The ones to watch out for are those guys who think they can personally save the company with their superior money saving efforts.

If you need deicing, get deiced. Your passengers are depending on your judgement.

 

Wasn't Air Florida the accident at DCA that was deiced but sat so long waiting for takeoff that the engine PT2 probes froze over? When they applied power for takeoff they got false EPR readings in the cockpit. The EPR guages show full power but the N1's and N2's showed only partial power. They had more thrust available they just didn't push the throttles forward. Sad but we all learned from it. Crosscheck ALL the engine instruments on takeoff.

 

they also used reverse thrust to back out of their gate, which inturn forced more snow and ice to be ingested.

 

OK, I remember that now. Which was the accident that had snow on the wings and it froze on take-off roll?

 

I think that was the same one. They had false EPRs as well as contaminated wings. (I could be getting my crashes mixed up, though.)

 

I think AF had contaminated wings, but that was because they waited so long to t/o. But I remember a crash that had snow accumulated on the wings (first flight, I think) and the crew took off expecting the fluffy stuff to blow off. I think it was a 737 and unknown to anyone, the airflow over the wing at the wing root supercooled the snow at the root and severely deteriorated the lift and crashed. Does that ring a bell for anyone?

Oh yeah, to keep this thread on-topic, when in doubt, de-ice.

 

depends on your airline. we only de-ice if the SOP says so, or the capt. elects to get it done.

 

yeah well if you read his question, it was directed to a specific airline situation.

didn't you learn to RTFQ! first.

 

I wasn't in CLE, but I was in BKL(I fly there every night of the week, it's the airport 8nm NE of CLE). Anyways, the snow's been crazy the last few nights. I got to do my first actual(assigned) hold of my career. 30 min @ LNN waiting for the vis to rise @ BKL.

Everyone's got great points. In the end, it's been really cold over there, about -6 to -8 on the surface, so it was snow that isn't going to stick. I have the advantage of stronger winds @ BKL since it's on the water, and the snow never even had a chance to settle on the airframe. So unless the plane sat for a long time and had accumulated snow, you guys are doing ok.

I've never been de-iced, I hanger it(Price $50 vs $600+). I saw the guys @ MDW deice a Shrike and it cost them $750. Places in the GA biz cost around $12-16/gal for type 1, never asked about anything else. We aren't allowed Hold-over times