There you go!

Not if you aren't referring to a single being or don't believe in one.

Not to me, it shouldn't. Capitalize should be "capitalized", however!
Oh and blah blah blah, PSA, blah blah blah, PDT, blah blah blah, Envoy.....

Thanks! And yes, it sure is pathetic!

Don't feed the trolls. ;)

Good job turning down a POS TA

On October 7th the AWAC TA was voted down by its pilot group. The TA was pitched as an “industry leading” contract in the 50 seat market. So how could such a TA be voted down?

First, the TA was largely the same as the existing pilot contract. Those eligible to vote have been on property for at least one year and its those pilots would have seen little change under the TA.

Second, if the TA had been accepted, it would have been in force for nearly two years before becoming eligible for renegotiation. But, one has to add another five years or so for those same negotiations to conclude, so we would have effectively been voting for, not a two year contract, but a 7 year contract. Locking in a long term agreement just when the market for pilots is showing strain was not a good deal; and a terrible deal given the TA had virtually no improvement over the existing agreement.

Third, the AWAC TA had been negotiated over the last five years. Many portions of that agreement were forged in years past and well prior to the “current pilot shortage”. By rejecting the TA we exercised our rightful option to reconsider the entire TA, and based on the current market conditions, which have moved considerably in the pilot’s favor in recent months.

Fourth, the airline industry as a whole is experiencing record profits. Mainline pilots are receiving raises, even those pilots enjoying industry leading contracts. The AWAC TA’s pay scale completely ignored it pilots, other than first year FO pay.

Fifth, many AWAC pilots have been bitten the Company’s sometimes torturous interpretation of the existing contract as well as the interpretation of FAR 117. A new TA, with new, less then clear language, would open up new areas for the Company to exploit.

So, the TA got voted down, for these and other reasons. What’s next? Actually, a quick resolution. Here’s my prediction:

With the TA rejected the Company recognizes that it’s ability to attract new pilots is now severely hampered. AWAC’s existing contract is no longer competitive with the new FO pay at other regionals. It’s flying future is also uncertain beyond two years along with its Captain upgrade times. There is no flow though agreement to Mainline. And, of course, there will be an ongoing dispute between the Company and it’s pilots. As FO candidates choose other regionals for their higher pay, greater opportunity and a more certain future, AWAC line-holding pilots will, not long from now, find themselves back on reserve (or junior manned) to fill in those gaps. After time, the declining quality of life will prompt the existing pilots to flee AWAC, much like what happened to carriers such as Endeavor. AWAC will then be at risk of disgruntling its remaining pilot group and incurring all the problems that would bring. The compounding effect of no new hires, fleeing pilots, poor pilot cooperation and parked airplanes would result in a death spiral that would be very expensive for AWAC to correct, assuming it could be correctable. A quick settlement is very much in the Company’s interest.

Absent a quick settlement, AWAC’s FO’s can simply make a lateral move to another regional like Endeavor. Their pay will improve immediately and they will likely fly larger airplanes. They will lose their seniority, but that means absolutely zero at a shirking regional. AWAC will quickly lose, or has already lost, all of its leverage in retaining it’s FO’s. Again, a settlement is very much in the interest of the Company.

So, I envision the Company quickly coming to terms with with a revised TA. I’d guess that a 10 to 15% immediate increase in pay above the TA’s rates, while retaining its existing terms and conditions, could settle the TA quickly. To put this in perspective, a raise of that amount adds less than $1.00 to the cost of a passenger’s fare on a typical flight. It is not known if AWAC could recover this added cost under its FFD contract, but regardless, this illustrates how little of an impact such a pay increase has on it’s operation.

Stepping back and taking a broader and longer term view of the industry as a whole, a career as a airline pilot has become much more difficult to economically justify. New pilots need a four year degree to be competitive at the majors. So a new pilot can expect to accumulate close to $200,000 in eduction costs and then work as a flight instructor for another 3 years at poverty wages. Once hired at a regional airline that pilot might make about $40,0000 a year for the first three years. Attempting to live on this sort of borrowing and subsequent income stream anchors one on a path to decades of debt and the very real threat of personal bankruptcy. Many banks have acknowledged this by either not funding, or not fully funding, a student’s education costs. It should be no surprise it is getting harder to find people willing to enter a career that take this sort of economic path.

And let’s not forget that your health must remain good enough to retain a Class A medical for decades, that you have no arrests on your record, certainly no DUI’s, and a lifelong social media record that won’t embarrass a potential employer. You need to be squeaky clean to be a candidate in this career.

But there’s more. The final obstacles in a pilot’s career are events entirely out of their control, such as recessions in the economy, company downsizing and/or bankruptcy, or a 911 type of event. Starting over at a new airline once you are already established at another will cost a pilot an absurd amount of money in the form of lost income.

If allowed to dream, I’d like to see AWAC position itself as a real industry leader. A regional airline with strong compensation package that actually reflects the costs and risks of pursuing a career as an airline pilot. If pilots and pilot candidates acted like investors on Wall Street they would demand, and receive, a compensation package that takes into account not only their own personal sacrifices, but the costs to those who did not make it in this career as well. In a rational market the cost of failures are supported by those products that make it to market.

Will AWAC offer its pilots such a dream contract? No. But a stronger TA than what was just rejected will help move both AWAC and the industry in that direction and help draw just a few more people into piloting as a career.

They will determine what needs to be sweetened just enough to get the next TA to pass. They will segment and target the various subgroups within the pilot group as a whole to apply the least amount of overall sweetener. Of course, most importantly, ambiguous language will continue to ensure they have arguable emergency exits when their use is deemed necessary.

All this is semantics over the long run, of course. The regional industry is simply running to hide right now as there is still a small (but rapidly dwindling) time to do that, but soon they will not be able to hide. The inevitable tsunami that has been steadily heading toward the airline industries beach is almost upon it (the pre-impact tide is now rapidly receding) and disaster is inevitable. Some regionals WILL fail and others will consolidate and soon, it will be a fraction of its former self and become the post apocalyptic tidal flotsam is was destined to be due to the very philosophy of those that caused the earthquake in the first place.

Karma is indeed a ***** and sooner or later, she always comes to collect. :cool:

Did they do that at Eagle????

Managements have been doing that to various carriers unionized labor for decades, including legacy (major), LCC and regional. Unfortunately, most present regional pilots get poor grades in airline management/labor history and not surprisingly keep making the same mistakes over and over, never learning, never growing.

Isn't there a common term for doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results ?

I've heard a number of pilots say we should have a flow agreement. How? (I know why...) Can anyone name one regional that has or had a flow program, that is (or was) not a wholly-owned subsidiary? That's why we don't, and most likely won't, have a flow program.

On the flip side, let's say we do get a flow agreement with AA. Now Delta come along with an offer of flying that has terms agreeable to AWAC management. What happens then? Or would DAL even consider offering that flying to us? Will we have to declare "AWAC rights" or "followthrough?"

You only have 2 years left on the AA agreement to even fly for them. Do you honestly think Parker would give AWAC a flow?? Hell if anything he's hoping that you guys tank so he can raid your pilots for his WO'ed airlines. We've already had more then a hand full of AWAC FO's leave and come to one of the 3 WO'ed and believe me he'd love them all.

AWAC management wanted a deal done and I think it was because they wanted to make them competitive in competing for flying with other Delta Carriers.

That being said they do offer a good product, but how long before people start jumping off a ship that starts to sink???

As for a flow thru there's no way in the world that's going to happen at AWAC. While I totally understand why this TA has been turned down I can understand now that AWAC will enter into much uncertain waters. No new planes and no new Code Share partners.

AWAC offers a good product, but is that what Majors want?? Or is it the bottom line..... Money.

The only FO's "bailing" for the wholly owned AA regionals from AWAC are new-hire wash outs.

I typically don't agree with what you post on here billyho, but you're probably correct about us not getting a flow. I can't see that happening. But I'm still not bailing for PDT to help your seniority number grow.

Billy, you repeatedly claimed this ta was going to pass. Youre an idiot who knows nothing. You have no credibility here. All noise. No signal. ****.

Find where I said it was going to pass???

I don't want a flow! I am still of the archaic thought that you should have to interview for a job!

Been seeing posts here and there that alot of flow through guys have been fired since they show up with the "entitled attitude" at the next level! Seems to be a problem at all the legacies with flow agreements!

I don't blame you. 8 years ago we did have many Piedmont Pilots bail for Republic and AWAC while we were in somewhat the same situation as you guys, wonder how they feel now? Nothing wrong with you staying at AWAC and guess what? You might just get rewarded for staying there just like our guys that stuck with Piedmont and are now just over a year from flowing.

Best of Luck.

You still have to interview with the 3 WO'ed. It's just when your number comes up you just have to pee in a cup. But then again there's more airlines then just American to chose from.

Oh billy come on don't do me like that. You know!

Okay you might find where I said it one time. He did say repeatedly and that's nowhere near the true.;)

Honestly I was waiting for someone to actually try and find one, hell I'm not sure if I did.:D

I'm interested really to see how management handles this. You guys have a NC Committee in line???

"Capitalized"!:rolleyes:

08-19-2015 07:19 PM by billyho
Quote:
Originally Posted by akulahunter
1) Billy... Seriously man, go start another PDT promotional thread. Even if this contract were concessionary, which I don't think it is, it is still worlds better than your 'not concessionary' contract.

.
And how so is that "Worlds" hahahahahah??? Your pay might be but then you factor in our Healthcare, Hotels for commuters and I'd put our contract up against yours any day of the week and I'd say it all equals out.

However at PDT Then there's the fast upgrade and flow thru. Just a few small benefits.

But you're right. I'm outta her. Good luck with the vote and I'm sure it will pass.

08-19-2015 01:18 PM by billyho
Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglefly
Designed in the hope of solving managements problem of attracting new-hires, not present pilots problem of marginal compensation and working conditions.

The only question, is will the suc......er, pilots fall for it ?

Answer is "Yes!"


8-23-2015 08:12 AM by billyho
Quote:
Originally Posted by el jefe
A good point was brought up on the air willy boards.
Most folks seem to be on the No side. The example was if you see an item for sale with all great reviews and then one poor review, that minority's opinion might possibly weigh more than what the majority is thinking. Or something g like that. I dunno, whatever.

If you think this deserves a Yes vote, tell us why.
Since I'm on your ignore list I'll answer

I doubt anyone thinks this deserves a yes vote but a yes vote will be the likely outcome. It's only small concessions (to a few with Family's I take it because of Health Insurance increases) you're giving up and your contract and pay remain well above others. Remember AWAC is top heavy of very senior Captains with family's and kids in school. They don't want to rock much of the boat until they can retire.

That's three times in one thread alone. Just shut up man. You contribute nothing. You can't even remember the bull you spew. Go away.

Hey billyho, ever think about running for Congress?

I heard they can't hire enough CTP candidates to fill up those classes and might not have any for the rest of the year. I think they are in trouble and will quickly scramble to make a new TA that is passable.

The only thing I wonder is if they will try to match/beat Republic new TA and TSA pay rates.

They'd better offer $40 starting pay, 10% raises for everyone else, and $2.00 per diem with yearly increases.

Only if Buck Nasty joins me.

You really think it's over? You think the companies gonna just come back and ask what you want and give it to you?? It's called negotiations for a reason.

And if it was up to you everyone would vote yes like the coward you are. You're right, it's a negotiation, and we voted no to negotiate more not less.

Hahahahahahaah apples and oranges. Kinda. Actually, no. You guys made your choice. Good for you.

Also, you can stop letting Billy hijack your threads by NOT RESPONDING to him

Look I've been around long enough to know that if you have a really good contract and want more on top of that you're going to have to give somewhere else.

I hope you guys get everything you dream for!! Go get er' done!!!

Bingo! I actually laughed my arse off that someone went back to find posts. I was waiting for someone to actually spend time on that. hahahahahahahahah

This is a AWAC thread??? Oh crap it is! Good Luck! :D

Where's eagle fly at???

Did you just end that sentence with a preposition?? How dare you!!

Bingo. PDT and PSA guys would sell their soul for a flow, everyone else be damned. People seem to forget that envoy's flow originated out of a grievance, not some contract negotiation. So anytime you d-bags wanna say thank you would be fantastic.

Thank you for expanding all contracts so that there's even more areas we might be able to undercut you in.

LONG LIVE ASPEN!!!!!

(Is this what you looking for?)

Spoken like a true d-bag.

LOL, says the Envoy Dummy! The flow was designed for one thing you dummy. Parker wants to run his regionals and to do so he wants to keep the cost down. Guess what??? It's working as all the senior pilots at Piedmont, PSA and Envoy will be moving on.

Believe me Parker didn't do the flow out of kindness for the pilots at his WO'ed. He wants a pilot factory to feed his Regionals cheap and then move them to his Mainline. Question is how long will it last?