|
Originally Posted by John Carr
(Post 2030134)
And to interject another point. You've had the BEST training in the world, there's NO DOUBT. But I'm sorry, you're simply not experienced enough in the 121 world to be a CA right out of the gate. Doesn't matter if it was at a regional flying the pretend Barbie Jet with only 50 of a legacy's customers on it or a 777 with over 300 of the legacy's on it. That may be hard to hear, but coming up on 20 years in this game, that's JUST THE TRUTH.
|
Originally Posted by John Carr
(Post 2030134)
To parse through some of the bovine scatology of what's going here, I'll interject this;
There's really ONLY ONE TREND, it's someone that can't simply check their ego, show up ready to learn, and do a good job. It's NOT a mil/platform/service vs. civ thing, AT ALL. It DOESNT matter if it was a "f-teen bro" or a "tanker bubba". It DOESNT matter if it's a former corporate guy, 135 guy, single engine freight guy, or whatever demographic you can think of. NO ONE wants to hear the pilot lament about "ya know, back in the Lear/Cheifton/freight/corporate/C-one/F-teen/super/mega/stealth/hawk/D-model squadron it was like this blah blah blah......" as they're screwing up a radio call, checklist, visual approach, or whatever. And sadly, when you get hired at a legacy, LCC, SLF company, whatever, it'll be THE SAME. Worst case; I remember having 20 something year old FO's go on and on about how he doesn't need to upgrade, because his buddy got hired at (legacy airline) with only a few thousand hours and he thinks he will too. Maybe he will. I ALSO remember flying with a mid 30's-mid 40's fresh off the military's rectum guy going on and on about how it's a slap in the face that he's at a regional, all his "bros" are at (insert airline) and he should be too. It swings BOTH WAYS. At least I knew I'd be saving money on the trip. LAST pilot I'm gonna be buying beer/coffee for as I slam-click. And to interject another point. You've had the BEST training in the world, there's NO DOUBT. But I'm sorry, you're simply not experienced enough in the 121 world to be a CA right out of the gate. Doesn't matter if it was at a regional flying the pretend Barbie Jet with only 50 of a legacy's customers on it or a 777 with over 300 of the legacy's on it. That may be hard to hear, but coming up on 20 years in this game, that's JUST THE TRUTH. As far as your q's about quality of life, etc, it's all been covered and beat to death adnauseum over the various regionals. Try to find the one with the quickest upgrade, where you won't have to commute, etc. if you hear of one that has "staffing issues/problems", that just means you'll get to fly a lot. And usually upgrade quicker. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, start networking your rear end off, NOW!!!!! If you haven't already. |
Well, now that we've got the negative examples of military pilots transitioning to 121, here are some positives that I always appreciate when flying with them.
Military pilots usually know the plane backwards and forwards. The systems knowledge is useful to diagnose problems and to make better decisions. They also are good with charts/graphs/etc so depending on the jet you fly at a 121, that's also extremely helpful. I also appreciate that military pilots generally understand the importance of doing things the right way and not taking shortcuts. They're predicable and reliable once they settle into 121. That's been my experience anyway, so another 2¢ to the pile. Every group has bad apples, but I always look forward to flying with military pilots. |
My sim partner was a KC-135 guy that had been flying drones for the last 4 years. He was an excellent stick and rudder right from the start (probably better than I showed even after years in the plane) His biggest issues in order seemed to be,
#1, justifying being there when he saw his paycheck of about $700 takehome twice a month. (he was an O-5 making a lot more than that in the AF) #2, The extra "outside the cockpit" considerations, such as communicating with OPS, Dispatch, Flight Attendants, ect. #3, Dealing with flows instead of everything being read/do. #4, Passengers that didn't obey orders. Overall a few months on line and he'd be fine, but no way should he (nor did he want or expect) to be a captain day one. He was here under a year and bailed to an all freight, heavy jet operator. (home virtual basing and see #1 and 4) |
Originally Posted by Mandrake
(Post 2030168)
For some reason this bothered me. It's happening. And if the guy doesn't want to upgrade it's really not any of your business. No reason to not buy the guy a coffee. Yeesh
It's about attitude man. Nobody wants to sit next to the guy crying that's it's not fair, or that he SHOULD be somewhere just because his buddies had better luck than him. "Moonchild, hear the mandrake scream" |
I apologize. Poor is too harsh. Let me rephrase my statement. It takes a year or two for a new airline pilot to become a GREAT FO.
|
To quantify, as both military and 121:
Pros: Mil guys will learn the aircraft very well and very quickly. Mil guys can fly very well, have great SA, and can make great decisions (relative to their experience). Mil guys are great at the flying aspect, but I would say that the actual flying part is about 40-60% of the job and management is the rest. When I started at the regionals I had 750hrs (mil TT r-ATP). First day of OE was 5 legs ending in Mexico. I did fine, the check airman even said he thought we would have to canx a leg because I would be so far behind, but I wasn't. I also wasn't the captain I was an FO. That being said, 2 years later I still wonder if I am ready for the left seat. Cons: You typically have 30 mins once you get on board the aircraft to plan, set up and release the break. In the military times are important, but not always the driving factor. You operate with the fuel dispatch gives you. You can't just throw on another few thousand pounds because the weather isn't great. Winter time operations in the 121 world takes time to understand and get used to. Mil guys are used to 1-2 flights a day, doing 4-5 does wear on you and attention to detail after 3 flights starts to degrade. Taxiing at large airports, I've been a regional guy for 2 years and I still hate going into ORD. Customer service is a whole different conversation. I hope this helps to highlight some areas that are different from mil flying that needs time to learn. This is not all of the problem areas, just a small list. |
The reason I would wait a year or two (depending on the individual) to upgrade to CA is becaue of experience in the airline system.
I have seen a few CA that upgrade too soon. They are not confident and that manifests its self in bad ways. The expeiance will make you cool, calm, and relaxed. All good traits in a Captain. Think of a year in the right seat as attaching down hill. It gives you a great advantage. |
I flew with many military guys (IPs etc) and all were great FOs, without exception (in my case). They all had great attitudes, and were MUCH more proficient than the typical 1500 hr instructor new hire (on average/my experience, of course).
121 is a different gig and will take about a year to get comfortable, regardless of your background. Another constraint to consider is that most airlines have (or did) a TT requirement in the 2500-3000 range. Find somewhere that you will be comfortable building some 121 time (ie no commute) and I'm sure a major will be calling before you have the seniority/time to upgrade, if that's your goal. |
Originally Posted by Twisted mind
(Post 2030195)
I apologize. Poor is too harsh. Let me rephrase my statement. It takes a year or two for a new airline pilot to become a GREAT FO.
For a civilian with a limited GA background and not much time experience, seems as if it takes about 300 hours/6 months to get comfortable and the learning curve to start to shallow out. Just an approximation. Maybe "great", maybe not. But just to start to feel comfortable. As in, "back in the day", coming of an 8 hour RR overnight, get in plane, do all the first flight stuff, etc with limited, if any errors/mistakes, etc before blasting off into a 5-6-7 leg/14-16 hour duty day. Just as an example. A mil guy it can just depend. Were they a reserve/guard "baby" with just UPT and platform qualification and some limited GA thrown in with not even 500TT? Could be up to that 300/6 number. If they were an AD type that was recently separated, even if non current it could be much shorter. But again, it's all about attitude. |
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2030122)
Hopefully your class is with a major airline. Go over to the major section of this forum and you'll find it's pretty rare to stumble on to a thread with these kinds of stupid blanket statements about mil guys.
That's because most guys coming out of the military have some common sense and apply it. If they've been flying single seat, they realize the crew coordination is going to be different. Since they still had crew coordination between aircraft and were highly reliant on that both during mission planning and actual flying, they usually adapt very well. Also, since the military operates a ton of crew aircraft, some pilots come out of the service quite familiar with a 2 or more person crew. Finally, since most military guys bypass the regionals completely, the small number that these regional guys end up working with may be either problem children that couldn't get a recommendation or arrive with a chip on their shoulder. Either way, they're the exception to the rule, though you wouldn't think so listening to these guys. My guess is for every military guy who shows up and fulfills these bad stereotypes, there's an insecure civilian pilot whose looking for problems where there aren't, possibly washed out or never had a chance at a mil spot and is just happy to have a chance to criticize or validate himself. Most won't be that way, of course. There are some new things to learn about company procedures and large civilian airports, new regs that now apply plus of course, the aircraft you're assigned to. Steep learning curve is all a matter of opinion, but it's not rocket science and not an issue for most guys who apply themselves. It's definitely easier than any military training you've done. So, you show up ready to learn and apply the same work ethic you have so far in your career. Keep an open mind, seek and take advice and be a team player. If you do that, things will work themselves out (even if you've never talked to ramp control or flown an RNAV arrival :rolleyes:). Good luck. |
Originally Posted by Turtledriver
(Post 2029952)
1600 hours and no ATP, and you are ready to jump in the left seat.
I want some of that stuff you are smoking. |
Originally Posted by pete2800
(Post 2030073)
I'm going to go ahead and make the bold statement that legacy airlines are probably smarter than your average collection of internet forum posters.
|
Originally Posted by knobcrk
(Post 2030068)
Yet they are first choice for the majors.
|
Originally Posted by knobcrk
(Post 2030224)
Probably. I wasn't trying to make a negative statement. If I had my own airline I'd hire a fighter pilot before a regional prop guy too eventhough I know the regional guy has better relative experience in driving a plane from A to B.
|
Check into Atlas Air. We love military guys like you.
Feel free to PM me... |
You DO realize that the majority of military pilots, particularly AF guys, have been doing CRM for a very long time in dual cockpits? (Excepting fighter guys and some helos, of course)
One of the main reasons the majors love military pilots is that they work very well in high-stress, dual-pilot situations without giving it a second thought.
Originally Posted by knobcrk
(Post 2030069)
Exactly. I've flown with military guys and they literally fly that right seat single pilot. You can tell a thousand things are going on in their brain they just can't do them because it's not single pilot anymore, it's a crew environment. Just take a deep breath and let the airline operation happen instead of you trying to make it happen. If that makes any sense.
|
Originally Posted by Otterbox
(Post 2030149)
As time goes on, you're likely going to see more military guys flying in the regionals thanks to increased service commitment time, and career diversification tours taking many of them out of the cockpits for their final 2-3 years of service. This has been a big trend with Navy Maritime pilots lately, and some of the AF Heavy crowd.
|
Originally Posted by BobJenkins
(Post 2030405)
You DO realize that the majority of military pilots, particularly AF guys, have been doing CRM for a very long time in dual cockpits?
|
Hey Big Daddy (don't think I ever would have thought I'd type or say that anywhere),
I'm an FO at an east coast based regional that has a home base within driving distance from you in Maryland. We're growing fast and hiring. Could be a good place to come spend some time learning the 121 environment while gaining experience. Currently upgrade times are fast. As soon as you have 1000 hours, you'll upgrade... If you feel you are ready. I also am a new hire (have been on the line for about four months now), so training is still relatively fresh in my mind. Would be happy to answer any questions you may have about what the training process is like at the regionals. I'm familiar with several of the other popular regionals as well, as I have friends at various companies. Feel free to email me... [email protected] Good luck. Mike |
Originally Posted by BobJenkins
(Post 2030405)
You DO realize that the majority of military pilots, particularly AF guys, have been doing CRM for a very long time in dual cockpits? (Excepting fighter guys and some helos, of course)
One of the main reasons the majors love military pilots is that they work very well in high-stress, dual-pilot situations without giving it a second thought. |
One of the most considerate posts I have seen on these forums yet. I would advise you, however, to have the mods edit your post and remove your email addy. PM him instead. For your own peace of mind.
Kudos to you!
Originally Posted by Future Cpt Kirk
(Post 2030469)
.
Feel free to email me... M%%%%%%%@***********.com Mike |
Originally Posted by BobJenkins
(Post 2030530)
One of the most considerate posts I have seen on these forums yet. I would advise you, however, to have the mods edit your post and remove your email addy. PM him instead. For your own peace of mind.
Kudos to you! |
Think about it from a risk vs. reward stand point. You have so far put together a nice resume. I am sure you would make a fine airline pilot. Is it worth the risk of getting a training failure on your otherwise good record? In the current state of the industry you just need some 121 experience and some total time to pad your resume. I would go to a regional hang tight for a year. Soak it up like a sponge. Then when you are nice and comfortable take the upgrade.
|
Originally Posted by HercDiver
(Post 2030197)
You operate with the fuel dispatch gives you. You can't just throw on another few thousand pounds because the weather isn't great.
|
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2030659)
:confused: Really? Last I knew 121 domestic and flag required both dispatch and Captain to agree on the fuel load. At every airline I've worked, you don't just take what dispatch gives you if you feel you need more. Sometimes your experience trumps them pinching pennies.
|
Originally Posted by HercDiver
(Post 2030677)
My point was that in the AF you can say "hey, put on another hours worth of fuel because I want to." That is different from the 121 world.
|
Originally Posted by Twisted mind
(Post 2029977)
Most former military make poor FO's for the first year or two. It is a steep learning curve.
|
Beyond what the FAA requires for a 121 Captain, the airlines themselves may have other requirements. The minimums at SkyWest for upgrade are (or at least they were) a minimum of 2500tt with a 1000 of that multi engine turbine in a crew environment. Other regionals have minimums as high as 3000-3500tt.
|
Originally Posted by HercDiver
(Post 2030677)
My point was that in the AF you can say "hey, put on another hours worth of fuel because I want to." That is different from the 121 world.
|
Originally Posted by HercDiver
(Post 2030677)
My point was that in the AF you can say "hey, put on another hours worth of fuel because I want to." That is different from the 121 world.
Sure, the company may have come out with "fuel initiatives" or whatever from the mainline partner that's paying for the gas. But that plane didn't move till I got the gas I wanted. Sure, the Dx'er may have balked over it. I didn't care, put it in the computer that it was the CA's request for the gas. I don't care. What's the CP gonna do? Call me because I was dx'd into an uncontrolled field in a non radar environment, at night, that has local yocals buzzing around at all hours that don't self announce on unicom and cause us to go around. And there isn't another strip for 100+ miles around it in case billy bob, his brother darrel, and his other brother darrel screws up and shuts down east Jesus North Dakota Regional Regional Airport and they gave us hardly anything more than taxi+burn+FAR reserve + 5-10 mins of ACF on a plane that is burning 5-10% more on average than what the software says it does? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I'll carpet dance that crap all day long. Something something.....more conservative approach....something something will prevail.....something something.......... |
Originally Posted by HercDiver
(Post 2030677)
My point was that in the AF you can say "hey, put on another hours worth of fuel because I want to." That is different from the 121 world.
|
Can anyone just answer the guys first question? Who is currently hiring direct entry captains? 8 pages of thread drift; wow.
|
Originally Posted by Flydaplane
(Post 2031155)
Can anyone just answer the guys first question? Who is currently hiring direct entry captains? 8 pages of thread drift; wow.
If I am considering going back to the regionals with 750 hours of existing Part-121 credit hours and just need 250 to hit that 1000-hour mark (i.e. looking to upgrade in less than six months)...where is the best place to go? I have heard of several direct entry CA outfits, but not really looking to go to the left seat at the expense of working for a "less than desirable" company. Also, since I don't yet have the 1000 hours of Part-121 then direct entry CA is probably not an option. Pretty much willing to live anywhere in the country. I have heard that Compass has a pretty quick upgrade. SkyWest and Endeavor look like good companies also, however they appear to have upgrades in the 3-4 year range. Any others to consider? |
Try gojet
Filler |
Originally Posted by CODs4ever
(Post 2085693)
Bringing this thread back to life rather than ask the same basic question in a new forum:
If I am considering going back to the regionals with 750 hours of existing Part-121 credit hours and just need 250 to hit that 1000-hour mark (i.e. looking to upgrade in less than six months)...where is the best place to go? I have heard of several direct entry CA outfits, but not really looking to go to the left seat at the expense of working for a "less than desirable" company. Also, since I don't yet have the 1000 hours of Part-121 then direct entry CA is probably not an option. Pretty much willing to live anywhere in the country. I have heard that Compass has a pretty quick upgrade. SkyWest and Endeavor look like good companies also, however they appear to have upgrades in the 3-4 year range. Any others to consider? Compass is planning to "upgrade 24 Captains per month indefinitely", not sure how long it would take someone hired today to be able to hold it, but for now its definitely a shorter upgrade compared to SKW or Endeavor |
Originally Posted by CODs4ever
(Post 2085693)
Bringing this thread back to life rather than ask the same basic question in a new forum:
If I am considering going back to the regionals with 750 hours of existing Part-121 credit hours and just need 250 to hit that 1000-hour mark (i.e. looking to upgrade in less than six months)...where is the best place to go? I have heard of several direct entry CA outfits, but not really looking to go to the left seat at the expense of working for a "less than desirable" company. Also, since I don't yet have the 1000 hours of Part-121 then direct entry CA is probably not an option. Pretty much willing to live anywhere in the country. I have heard that Compass has a pretty quick upgrade. SkyWest and Endeavor look like good companies also, however they appear to have upgrades in the 3-4 year range. Any others to consider? |
Endeavor
You'll upgrade fast and get a delta interview. Not to mention over 50k a year to start |
Originally Posted by Farmlover
(Post 2085732)
Endeavor
You'll upgrade fast and get a delta interview. Not to mention over 50k a year to start |
I'd try commutair, had a pilot with 1000 hrs go directly into upgrade training after I OE. 10 Captains needed a month for the e145s as soon as they start rolling out.
Originally Posted by CODs4ever
(Post 2085693)
Bringing this thread back to life rather than ask the same basic question in a new forum:
If I am considering going back to the regionals with 750 hours of existing Part-121 credit hours and just need 250 to hit that 1000-hour mark (i.e. looking to upgrade in less than six months)...where is the best place to go? I have heard of several direct entry CA outfits, but not really looking to go to the left seat at the expense of working for a "less than desirable" company. Also, since I don't yet have the 1000 hours of Part-121 then direct entry CA is probably not an option. Pretty much willing to live anywhere in the country. I have heard that Compass has a pretty quick upgrade. SkyWest and Endeavor look like good companies also, however they appear to have upgrades in the 3-4 year range. Any others to consider? |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:50 AM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands