Your thoughts for a potential career changer?
 

Hey Guys and Gals - I would appreciate getting opinions from the many regional pilots on this board, especially those with families and any career changers. I keep reading about 18K pilots needed at the majors in the next 8 years, sign-on bonuses at the regionals, flows with Piedmont and Commutair and am very tempted to make the leap into professional flying. I have my age working against me (42) and I still need 700 hours to hit ATP requirements. I have my CFI, CFII, MEI and am confident I could get the 700 hours this year. I've spend the last 18 years in cubicle hell and am burned out from it, but have a great schedule that allows me a great deal of time with my family.

My questions - I realize training and the first year or so will be difficult schedule wise, but does it get better after that, at say an airline like Piedmont, Skywest, CommutAir etc? Are 3 days on/4 days off schedules a realistic thing for a line holder? This is assuming moving to the base that gets assigned. Will the majors really be hiring like crazy the next 10 years? If the flows are real, and your goal is a major, why bother applying to another regional, assuming one of the flow ones picks you up?

Thanks for your thoughts - I'm trying to make the right decision regarding a long overdo career change and this seems like a once in a lifetime opportunity to join the professional pilot ranks.

The schedule will get better...marginally. Until you upgrade...then worse....then better, then as a new hire at a major it will be bad again...become senior....change airplanes....cycle starts again.

With such a great QOL and schedule - I would never take the jump into professional flying. I love my job, but at the end of the day I just want to be home with my family.

With that all being said - talk it over with your family. It's going to be harder on them than it will be on you, for sure. If at the end of the conversation you still can't see yourself doing anything else, then go for it.
Good luck!

Why wait to get the 700 additional hours. Cape Air would probably hire you to start ASAP.

I understand life in the cube and am glad to be liberated as well. My worst day at the airline is better than my best day in the office. Understand that being away from family is very hard and will be a tough adjustment for you and any young kids you may have. An ideal situation is if you have a spouse that has medical benefits, as most contract airlines have plans that are very expensive. If you don't have to go on one of them, the First Officer salary does not hurt as bad (it still hurts). With your age, I recommend going to CommutAir since they are a small pilot group that is getting ready to explode with the announcement of getting jets and the new agreement with United. A close second would be Endeavor, due to the retention bonus being offered. With your age being a factor, don't waste your time with places like Republic, Mesa, Gojet or Trans States. All this info will change by the time you get 1500 hours, but this is the way things stand today.

Things change at the contract airlines very quickly. What's true today will not be true tomorrow. If you are looking for the 35,000 foot view opinion though, I think at 42 you will be ok making the leap. I would caution you though to take one step at a time. Don't worry so much about the specifics like you are trying to do with your questions, you're a ways off. I mean keep up with the industry of course, but your immediate goal should be to get to 1500 hours and really nothing else. Make it that far first.

Having said all that, you are too old to make any serious mistakes. Stay away from training contracts, large training debt, and aviation degrees. Don't be cashing anything in either to pay for all this.

The shortage is real. 18,000 pilots will retire in the next 6 years. That's the entire contract pilot population.

Now having said all that, look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you will be ok spending your flying career never upgrading to Captain at United, Delta, American, and Southwest. That is a very real possibility at your age.

CTPropGuy -

I don't post much (really at all), but we are the same age and I too am a career changer. The only difference is that I have no children (nor plans for any), and my husband and I have both had very, very nontraditional work schedules over the years. I'm a bit ahead of you as I am literally a handful of hours from 1500 and hope to be interviewing next month. I have decided to pursue it while I can before I get any older. I hope it is a good time (how can we ever know?) but I do believe FirstClass is probably right about never making left seat at a major and I'm totally ok with that.

Feel free to message me any questions.

If left seat is important to you in the future though, of course there are other smaller airlines you could possibly make a career at. And I suppose the truth is if you do make Captain at a Frontier or a Spirit etc.. you likely could be merged into a major in the future and be able to retain your captain seat as a result.

Feedback
 

I've recently done what you're considering. Feel
Free to PM me and we can chat..

+10.

I have no regrets making the jump from Cubicle World. There will be culture shock at first which for me was compunded by commuting and sitting reserve. I'm now nearing 10 years at my current carrier, living in domicile and making decent money in the left seat. You may be coming into this at a better time as the economy last decade wasn't great and we saw stagnation in movement thanks to the Age 65 Rule. Hopefully for anyone jumping in now progression will move faster, barring any adverse major events.

I was your age when I made the change. Assuming I get the call up to the big leagues soon, I have a decent shot of retiring from the career from the left seat... although I'd be quite content making F/O pay until I retire (look at the pay scales at the majors). Any regrets? For me, not one. Convincing family that it's a good idea may be the hardest part. Been there, done that :-) Good luck!

Re: Trans States,

Don't waste your time at a place with good first year pay, little to no reserve at certain domiciles, and a sub 2-year upgrade even without prior 121 time??? Sounds like with his age being a factor, TSA should be at the top of the list, depending on where he lives. What am I missing? Agree 100% with the first 3. And yes I'm a Trans Stater.

I've done my 18 years in a cube and I'm working on making the change too. I'm in a little better shape as I have nearly 2K hours and a fresh ATP, but I've had a difficult time ascertaining which carriers would be the best fit. A lot of factors to consider. I'll be interested to hear what you find out.

No disrespect to your company choice intended, but I don't trust uncle Hulas. I threw it in there because of the whole alter-ego move. He needs to avoid a place that has pulled that move in the past. By the way, I am XJT (ASA) and note I did not recommend he consider or avoid them.

No disrespect taken, was just curious what you were basing that statement on. Don't forget Compass in that case. And If we're going back 10 years into a company's history then don't forget to advise him to steer clear of all the Delta and American WOs and American-only operators. Bad moves have been pulled in the past there too. So what's left? Skywest and Horizon?

Yeah, I left out the American WO carriers because the flow may actually happen now. I mentioned Endeavor solely for the money, being that he is in his 40's.

If I was entering the industry at 40+ I'd be looking for a place with a quick upgrade. Unless he's ok with sticking it out at a regional. In that case Endeavor/Skywest would be a solid move. Again depending where he lives.

I think the biggest factor in your decision should be the amount of time with your family you are about to give up. This should not be underestimated or glazed over in your decision. Being a new hire at a regional is not a good job for a someone with a wife and kids. Down the road, schedules, pay, and overall quality of life improve dramatically but you need to be aware that in the beginning it will be very hard. Its not just the amount of time away from home but the type of time also. You'll be gone weekends, holidays, (when the majority of everyone else is at home) and a lot of your 'time home' will be during the day in the middle of the week when no one else is home. Even for those who work desk jobs who are gone for 10-12 hours a day, I think there is something to be said for at least seeing your family every night/day if only briefly. You will be away more than you are home (at first, and for most of your tenure at a regional). 4 days gone, (more if you have to commute) 3/2 days home is typical. Not the other way around. If you decide to fly professionally you and your family need to understand this and you all need to be ready for it.

If you live in domicile it is also much easier. You are right flow is valuable, but not as valuable as living in base. If you live in a domicile where there is a regional with a flow then I would go there, but don't commute for a flow, chiefly for two reasons: 1. If you're a normal professional person you will be likely able to get hired somewhere before its time for you to flow anyway and 2.We are headed into unprecedented times. Flow is a guarantee of nothing. If companies can't hire enough below you (and mathematically this is the direction we are headed in) then all bets are off. Do not sacrifice living in base or quality of life for flow, make these your priority and everything else will fall into place. I have commuted and I have lived in base. I cannot overemphasize how much better life is when you do not have to commute, especially if you have a family to go home to.

All regionals are in danger in the coming years. Don't get comfortable, things will change, just expect this and be ready for it. Sorry for the long post, but this is one of my biggest issues with the job and I would hate for someone with similar values to not know what they are getting themselves into. Now having said all that, I enjoy my work, and we are definitely in need of some good professionals so as long as you and your family are aware of the challenges and ok with them, I say come on over we would love to have you. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

I'm unclear. Are you saying that Endeavor/SkyWest would be solid choices for quick upgrade?

If not, then which companies would be best for upgrade?

Nope. I was saying if he plans to stay at a regional until 65 then a quick upgrade isn't as much of a factor. So in that case Skywest seems like a good place for overall QOL once you're off reserve, and Endeavor seems to be improving and pays well for the next few years. But depending on where he lives, both of those might not be the best option. But if he plans on moving on to a Legacy or LCC then i'd think he'd want to take a chance in a place with a quick upgrade. I chose TSA because it seemed like a good middle ground. The pay is competitive, work rules are good, commuting policy is good (would be better if they did hotels). Reserve is extremely quick at most bases (read: QOL) and the upgrade is less than a year if you have prior 121 time. Still under 2 for a new 121 guy like me. Granted, quick upgrade isn't everything and can go away at any time but based on the information that was available to me it was a good choice for my situation (not married, no kids). Obviously for someone who has a family and lives somewhere like SEA or SFO I wouldn't recommend TSA, but for me it was a good option.

Ah, gotcha. TSA was originally low on my list because STL isn't a good commute for me (I can't avoid commuting right now, unfortunately) However, if I have a chance of getting ORD or DEN as a new hire, I may have to reconsider. My goal is a major so movement's a factor. I'm a year older than OP but I'm good to go on hiring minimums already.

As to the age thing - never give up. I was talking to a pilot at the airport the other day as we were waiting for our hotel shuttles to arrive. He told me he was in the middle of the pack as far as age/seniority goes in his class last year. When I asked his age, he told me... 58.

Do not let your age deter you. There are a LOT of people quite older than you guys just starting out in the 121 arena.

But will PIC time really matter in 2-3 years?:)

Since it matter little today, I doubt it will matter in 2-3 years.

So why have the guy chase the quick upgrade?

I never said that. Nor would I. The only thing I think is worth chasing is getting off reserve ASAP and getting the "magic" 1000 hours of 121 TSIC.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that's what you said. Just saying many on this thread are telling OP to chase because his old and quick way to major is PIC time.

If you think having 121 PIC time doesn't at least give you a leg up then i truly hope you end up on a legacy hiring board for all our sakes. Is it less important than years past? Absolutely. But doesn't mean its not valuable resume fodder. Also idk about OP's financial status but the extra 30k per year that comes with the upgrade goes a hell of a long way towards QOL. At least for me it would. Not that i'm advising anyone to just chase the upgrade. But to say its not a factor at all would be poor advice.

Agreed that PIC makes a pilot more competitive. But PIC is becoming less important as time goes on. I think it will be much less important in a year or 2 than it is now. No one will deny that the game is changing daily and that the changes are in the pilots favor.

I also agree that flow isn't all that important. By the time your number comes up in a flow, most pilots could have been hired on their own at other airlines. Remember the Big 3 aren't the only games in town. FedEx, UPS, Alaska, Southwest, and all the LLCs, etc. Flow is a management tool to make you get in line and be metered to their major at managements chosen pace. It's a marketing tool to get pilots to their airline. I'm not saying it's not nice to have in your back pocket in case other options don't work out. I'm just saying it's not that important with the retirement numbers coming up. All airlines are going to be hiring at unprecedented numbers.

Do it! If you're family life can handle the schedule and if your finances can handle low pay for a couple of years, just do it.

Your age is not working against you. You had a successful career and now you can get reinvigorated and have another successful career. If you are burned out in your current position, imagine how you will feel if you are still in that position in 5 years. 8 years. 10 years. You still have 20+ years to give to a flying career.

You will be surprised in your new hire class that you won't be the 'old guy'. You will be right in the middle of the pack with a bunch of other guys that have been waiting for this opportunity.

Yes, the major airlines are on the verge of major hiring. And there is no end in sight.

I am a career changer and this job rocks (despite its well documented challenges - pay, schedules, commuting).

Just do it. Live your life with no regrets.

Thank you!
 

Thank you for all of the opinions and taking time to respond to my post. Here are some retirement numbers I was playing around with in excel for the big 3, since they have the most retirements coming soon - if there are roughly 14000 regional pilots (and I realize majors hire from military/135/etc as well) I wonder where airlines will hire after about 10 years? I stopped adding all the retirements in my sheet as the numbers get high enough to say "Yes at this point anybody who wants to fly for the big 3 will have that chance."

year aa united delta total by year total cumulative
2016 135 371 225 731 731
2017 190 431 286 907 1638
2018 300 413 415 1128 2766
2019 418 424 513 1355 4121
2020 535 427 602 1564 5685
2021 580 509 789 1878 7563
2022 647 470 851 1968 9531
2023 704 552 809 2065 11596
2024 717 491 805 2013 13609
2025 713 600 713 2026 15635
2026 705 652 610 1967
2027 595 632 514 1741
2028 512 736
2029 474 675
2030 414 653
2031 434 649
2032 385
2033 368

One thing these charts do not take into account is what the numbers will be after the FFD contract pilots move over to mainline, when do they retire? For example, a bunch of these pilots are say 50 years old and accept employment with a major, they now need to be calculated into the 2030 retirement number which is not reflected yet.

When you look at it from that point of view, the numbers are far higher.

Nice calculation. This also doesn't take into account the inevitable transition of regional flying back to the majors.

Beyond thinking about upgrades, retirements, or even the pay, think about what it will do to your life. Do you currently live near a hub where you could get based by the regional that's based out of there? Or are you planning on commuting or moving? You'll probably get tired quickly of commuting from the west coast to the east coast for a job that requires you to be there a minimum of 4-5 days a week. What about after your regional time if you get hired at a Legacy and based on the other side of the country?

I also wouldn't plan on a 3 on 4 off schedule. More typical is 4 on 3 off. And it could be worse. Add commuting to that at it means you'll be lucky to have two or so days a week at home.

Living in domicile the schedules can be great. I slept at home nearly every day last year. Used my overnight bag probably for less than 10 nights and I'm not very senior in domicile. Compared to my time in the military, behind a cubicle, or the other management positions I had before flying, this job head is incredibly better.

If you want to fly, do it. If your only reason for change is you think you'll be making $150K in 5 years you'll probably be pretty unhappy. You may never make that kind of money. Not everyone will get to a Legacy.

Also doesn't factor early retirement by choice, or forced to retire by death, injury/ loss of medical.

It'll be hard to get a clear idea of how much of this will happen, but BLS.gov puts job growth in the airline pilot sector at about 1% which means growth just barely exceeds job consolidation from reclaimed regional flying. So seems to me barring major calamity, you can probably take those retirement numbers each year + 1% of total pilot jobs and that should ballpark job availability per year (unless we are in a recession).

Used to be. Not any more. Most line holders are getting worked to the max amount of days possible and no end in sight. Lifers are trying to get out now and sick calls have become the only way to get time needed off, which is why they have now have the CPs emailing about sick calls.

Not to mention people who are on LOAs, medical leave, FMLA, etc.

1. This job is unfair to a family and kids. I would feel horrible if I had kids and don't know how people justify it. You will miss out on virtually everything for all the many years you are a Junior regional FO, a Junior regional CA, then all over again for years as a junior pilot at a larger carrier. Birthdays, Holidays, Family events, important kids activities, weekend activities with friends, you will be gone in a hotel. Get use to things like all your family visiting your house on Christmas or Thanksgiving and you are stuck in a crappy hotel in middle of nowherville Kansas. Or all your friends getting together for a fun event or BBQ on the weekend but you can't go.. Over time they just stop asking because you are never there. This job has destroyed countless relationships. Some people make it work, MANY don't last. I see it constantly over the years. It's sad.

2. 3 on 4 off schedule isn't realistic and isn't happening for a long time.. then it will go away again as you progress upwards and are junior again in a different seat.. this cycle will continue many times as you move up in this career. The further you get up the ladder, the longer those years you will wait are.. Regional FO seniority moves fairly quickly, as there is a lot of turnover and movement, regional CA is a lot slower, and so on.. The trend with staffing getting worse and worse is having us work MORE days, not less.. unfortunately. This is only going to get worse with looming retirements. Plan 4-6 days on, 2-3 off. Commuting and reserve will make it even less.

3. Honestly.. I think this job is boring and I would trade it for an office job to be home every day and not waste my life away in airports and hotels. Some people are die hard and just love it, you fly with those people every now and then, they are the one's who read aviation magazines, play flight sim in the hotel, build RC planes, take picture of planes at the airport still.. most of us aren't that way, at least not anymore. Most of us just show up, try to get the shortest trip possible and just think about getting home ASAP. Doing this everyday sucks all the fun out of it in a hurry, trust me. You don't even really fly anymore at this level to be honest. Autopilot is on 98% of the time, and you punch buttons on the FMS or flight guidance panel when ATC tells you to do something. That's it. Every now and then you see something cool, or get to do something interesting or fun like flying low around NYC or DC to do their visual approaches.. but for the most part it's very dull and incredibly boring IMO, and there is a lot of crap and BS to deal with on the ground. As a captain you are responsible for everything and you get blamed for everything too if anything ever goes wrong. Flying is the easy part, being on the ground and dealing with all that is the crappy stressful part. Coordinating everything, paperwork nightmares, getting everyone else to simply do their jobs is a never ending challenge.. which most of this you DON'T EVEN GET PAID FOR. Since 90% of this BS is always happening with the main door open, you aren't even on the clock getting paid. Delays too, hours and hours you sit there losing out on time off, for free. Then really hope you don't miss your last commute flight home that day because of it, (happens all the time).. that will cost you a precious day off, unpaid.

The hard part about leaving this career after so much time and money invested into it is replacing the legacy level income with another regular job.. I think that is one of the only reasons a lot of people don't leave from everyone I know. Which as a new person starting out, it will take you a long time living at terrible wages to get too anyway, if you ever get there. I'm over a decade invested in regionals and still stuck here, and not for lack of trying. Thousands and thousands are in the exact same position. Things change rapidly and are very cyclical in this industry and you never know what will happen. Age 65, oil prices and 9/11 wrecked this industry in a heartbeat for many of us at the regionals currently. All of us here at the time paid the price getting stuck at horrible low wages as a regional FO forever, furloughed, or had to start over at the bottom multiple times. Then there is the constant shifting around of regional flying and people undercutting one another and stepping on each other to try to get ahead at your expense. One day your regional will be "the" place to be, the next day the bottom feeders of the industry with the worst contract is taking all your flying, and you move backwards, then that cycle continues on and on.. Is it worth it just to do this? I would say definitely not. Things are trending in a positive direction right now but could go in the toilet in a second with one big terrorist attack, oil spike or any number of things. No way in hell I would start over in this industry again if I had a good job with plenty of family time. Fly for fun if you enjoy it. Not because you have too.

It's funny, for every person that wants to do this, there is a person sitting in a hotel that wishes they just had a normal well paying 9-5 again. BTW I am typing this from a Hotel, wishing I was home having fun with friends and family on a Saturday night.. Instead I will be getting up at 0345 AM for a 16 hour day tomorrow with a 2.5 hour commute. Think about that..

4. Live in base if at all possible. It is a drastic difference in quality of life and basically mandatory if you care about your family time, stress levels and sanity. Commuting is a nightmare, it's extremely stressful and wastes an enormous amount of your life. Last week every flight I showed up at to get home on had 4-5 other jumpseaters each flight and was overbooked. You are tired, you just want to get home after a 10-12 hour day, but you can't just go home like a normal person. It's wait 2 hours for the next flight, try again.. same thing, more jumpseaters, full flight, try again in another 3 hours, on and on.. finally I took a high risk of getting stranded 2 leg 5.5 hour commute through another hub city to get home at 2am after 21 hours that day. This is not uncommon. It happens all the time. Commuting SUCKS and takes years off your life. Saying that about living in base, I HAVE moved to base 3 times to end this nightmare, and had my base closed on me and moved each time. This regional industry is HIGHLY unstable if you haven't grasped that yet. The Majors aren't much better. Bases close or shift around even at the Legacy level. So.. hope you don't like making long term living arangement plans.. this job will likely ruin them. FYI.

It's easy to dismiss all this stuff as a newbie looking in and just see fun, excitement and Delta, UAL, AA pay rates. Everyone does. I did too. Then you live it for 5-10+ years and that all goes away when reality sets in somewhere between your $800 paychecks, lack of sleep, crap hotel in podunk Indiana, and waiting around all day staring out the windows of an airport on 4th of July weekend wishing you could just go home and have a good time with your friends and family like everyone else does.

This^^^^ you summed it up perfectly