Washout rates?
 

I was talking with friend this weekend who mentioned that the washout rate for new hires at his regional is on the order of 20% or so. Is this typical across regionals? What are some typical reasons?

I was suprised to hear it if only because it would seem to indicate that either the interview process was flawed or or that they are taking anyone who meets the mins and figuring it out during training/OE. I'm guessing the latter, as a 20% washout rate in any other industry would be seen as wasteful and point to an interview process in dire need of overhaul.

There is really no interview process per say anymore because the situation is getting so despetate. Kind of a "throw it on the wall and see what sticks" hiring attitude. Some airlines are interviewing over Skype.

When I went through training two years ago, everyone in our class passed-all 20. Only one guy had issues, and they ended up pulling him out and slowing down the pace so he could get some one on one...granted he was going through a divorce, and some other major things.

While my company has a good pass rate, I know of two airlines that are over 50% washout..I don't want to call them out on a public forum but all training programs are not created equal-but you know that by now.

20% washout rate probably isn't so outrageous when you consider it's probably the first formalized screening/training process different types of individuals have encountered.

I can tell you at TSA, the training department does what it can to get you through training. Many take additional sims and the union is very involved in mentoring. On the other side, if you can't fly an ILS or perform basic maneuvers or refuse to memorize your SOP, there isn't much anyone can do.

There's often one or two guys in a given class at a given airline that just aren't quite up to par for one reason or another. Maybe they've been dinking around in a 152 when it's clear and a million all their lives, or maybe they've been dropping parachuters the last few years and IFR skills have degraded significantly.

At the regional im at. Our pass rates were excellent. They use AQP, I think most regional/contract airlines do now as well. I do know of a few that failed the checkride but passed on the second time. Just looking at the surrounding 60 guys near my hire date. A few others had training issues like what someone said above, just a slow down/extra review and then back on track. Basically, they just had a few days delay since the had the issues during training in either the clasroom or a sim session. (For example, first couple V1 cuts were unsatisfactory in Sim 1, or a poorly exectued Go around etc.) and not during a jeopardy event. (usually thats just the checkride and maneuvers validation with AQP. every airline calls them something different though) So they had to come back and redo a sim session or two before they could proceed.
From what I witnessed (im sure others witnessed differently) those guys/gals who had issues were low experienced(not time, just little IFR time and little if any turbine or Multi engine time). But not all who had that kind of experience had issues either. Many times people got delayed was due to simulator time, after one unstisfactory item. If the student had a few rough V1 cuts first time around, or a bad approach in the sim and there was no extra time left in that sim session (4 hours for two newhire FOs, approx 2 hrs each) they had to default to "incomplete" which throws a wrench in the training timeline as now you are a full sim session behind. From what I can tell, all of the 2 or 3 folks I know of with training hiccups or a checkride failure and redo, all came from VFR single engine flying. (keep in mind, everyone is different and this info is just what I witnessed) No recent time in anything as a CFII, IFR flying, ME, or turbine. Some had atp mins, some had 3000+ with 10+ years. Those with recent multi engine or turbine time, and IFR time appeared to have an easier time. Those who didnt, just appeared to have a slightly higher rate of training issues. Many VFR, single engine CFI/non CFI only guys did just fine. Just maximize your study habits with your sim partner and class mates. You will do just fine.

I don't remember the exact number my class at PSA started with, something like 25 or maybe 28? Anyway... We didn't lose anyone during Indoc or during Ground/Systems that I can recall. But we did lose 3 or 4 during sims, and 1 on IOE. Not horrible attrition.

So does AA. Its only the preliminary interview but they do use it.

2/14 washed out of my class this summer at MESA.

Every regional will have a washouts. The interview is not a way to weed people out for the most part. It's more of a formality to see if you'll fit into company culture and if you'll play nice with others and to see if you're a semi smart guy with some airplane knowledge. Some guys just can't handle part 121 pace, they are usually the guys who are making career changes after sitting in a office for 20 years and part time instructing usually just giving the monthly BFR to crop dusters. Those are the guys that struggle. Every industry has a washouts. Mostly comes down to the attitude you wanna bring to training. Wanna goof off and party every day or do you willing to sit down and study every day like its the day before finals for 6-10 weeks?

There was an "experienced" ASA Captain that washed out of JetBlue. Horrible attitude and blamed others for his failures. It happens everywhere. There are some people that just don't belong in the cockpit.

Some people who don't make it at one airline move on to other airlines.

In the past the "typical" washout rate at regionals was about 10%.

But with interviews nowdays doing little or no screening for airline pilot aptitude, 20% actually seems reasonable. I'd probably be worried if it were much less. Not all Cessna SkyGods are airline material (regional or otherwise).

I think through every training program I've been to at least 2 wash out of the class. Every time it has been those 2 that refuse to cooperate and graduate, or for some crazy reason just can't fly. I remember going through xjt we had this one guy say "well if this was a douches I could fly the hell out of it" of course he washed out and couldn't understand the automation much less the flight director, but man they gave him buku FTDs and still couldn't cut it and blamed the company for his failures and awesome bug smasher skills.

The overall quality of available bodies seems to have taken a dip as well which leads to higher than normal wash out rates. It's not uncommon for new hires nowadays to require 100+ hours of IOE.

How is that even possible? Why do companies allow that to happen. A few more hours than required fine, but by 50 hours of OE, if you don't get it, you probably aren't going to get it.

I agree! That's just pathetic.

TWA had 100 hr. IOE's with their F/E to Capt. upgrades.

Yeah ironically the only guy in my class that almost washed out was the only former airline pilot in the class, and did he let everyone know that day one! My plane this my plane that. They gave us limitations to memorize for day one and when it came to him he started spitting out limitations for the plane he was previously on...I believe he had a target on his back from there on out haha. I don't think someone with no previous 121 time is at THAT much of a disadvantage. Just study and keep your mouth shut, doesn't matter where you come from.

Is there really that much to OE? I mean it took less time than that to get a commercial ticket for both single and multi along with an instrument rating. What are those folks tripping up on?

ETA: Wow, on re-reading that, it sounds arrogant. It's not meant to be - I'm sincerely curious and have no frame of reference for what a "normal" OE should look like.

If every part of your first 5-10 hours of 121 IOE isn't enlightening, you need to open your eyes. After that it's understanding the airline. In the first 121 op, the first 100 hours is a pure learning experience. If you ignore it, you will get bit. It's far different compared to any 91 operation or previous rating training. Open your eyes to everyone involved and everything going on outside your direct control.

But how does that square with the comment above that if you don't get something in 50 hrs of OE you probably won't ever get it? Sure, learning continues far beyond that - but what number is "enough" versus "too much" for OE? I was under the impression from previous comments, for example, that 100 was too much. I understand from your comments than 10 is far too little. What's normal?

I did ~20 landings and 10 Instrument approaches on IOE. How many did it take you to first solo or get your instrument ticket?

The hours seem high initially but depending on leg length there is only so much opportunity to fly the plane in every phase of flight.

His problem was attitude, not his prior 121 experience.

Statistically you are. Folks with prior 121 (or certain 135) experience are almost assured to complete training if they approach it correctly. If they screw up, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Light piston pilots are at a higher risk because...

1) It's all new, and there's a lot of it.

2) Not all of them have the ability (in some cases work ethic) to do it.


Safest approach.

Everything should "click" in 25-50 hours. Beyond that there has to be a clear reason for more, or the pilot needs to be let go. That's my position.

Stuff happens. Not picking on cessnas in particular, that's where I came from too. But folks with turbine/121/135 experience are a better bet than ASEL. Military experience is a much better bet.

Ahh yes, got it - makes total sense. I got my instrument ticket in 40.2 hours, but probably could have done in less if legal due entirely to my instructor who was awesome (lots of actual, for example). But that was doing 4 approaches an hour etc. Thanks!

I can teach you how to fly a CRJ, I can't teach you how to study and prepare. If you can't do the latter, there is no hope for the former! It's as simple as that.

That's true no matter what the job is and makes perfect sense.

The problem now is they are hiring more guys that are almost semitards. I knew day one who was going to fail out of the class. Now he is at GoJet.

The washout rate should be higher if they are hiring more substandard pilots.

Interesting thread. I've been offered a FO position in a metro flying cargo and a job flying pipeline in a cessna. The catch is that the cargo gig while it is better experience is with a company with a less than stellar reputation and a significant training contract (length and money). The pipeline gig will allow me to get to a regional significantly quicker (like 130ish hrs/month vs 70ish) but I am concerned that the experience won't adequately prepare me for a 121 environment. What I've gathered from this thread is that if you're an average pilot who is motivated and has a strong work ethic you should be ok. I'd like to tap into some of the collective wisdom of this group so any input is appreciated.

It actually comes down to personality and attitude. The best pilots in my opinion are the ones who are humble, willing to learn, have a great attitude and don't think they are god's greatest gift to aviation. If you're a guy who takes offense when a Captain or an instructor calls you on a mistake made and get on the defensive side and always make up an excuse....well, you're going to have a hard time getting through a 121 training program, let alone survive on the line. People alway slip through the cracks but, you get the point.

Thanks for the quick reply. That's encouraging because I definitely don't fit that profile.

Yeah man, you don't have to be the best pilot in the world. There's a ton of people that go from flight instructor to the CRJ or the ERJ without an issue. Having something in between besides CFI'ing always helps but not necessary. Just have a good attitude and you'll be fine.

You'll be fine. It's 70% attitude and 30% aptitude. Even here at Blue we have folks who don't pass training (but they are few and far between). Always try your hardest, be humble and study as much as you can. Also, chair fly with your sim partner prior to sims. It doesn't matter if you are flying a CRJ or an Aibus or a 747. Do this for every new airplane type.

Yah, But can you teach them to actually fly the aircraft ?

I know I've said this before, but don't sign a training contract to fly for any 135 freight company, they're all hurting for pilots and most won't give you any training worth a damn. An SIC type in a metro is about the most useless type you can get in the real world. If you really want the job tell them your interested, but will not sign a training contract, if they won't hire you it's probably for the best anyways.

Not that 135 cargo isn't a bad way to get some initial experience, just be smart about it, and be careful. People do die doing this job no car part is worth your life.

Thanks a lot for the feedback guys. I finally got the specifics on the pipeline job and the pay is almost 30% better without a training contract. So I'm guess I'm headed that route.