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Originally Posted by Waitingformins
(Post 2079589)
Europe goes on strike every other weekend, and there is nothing better about their airline jobs.
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Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2079566)
They simply couldn't show that the union did enough to stop it. They needed to be more aggressive. Wink wink nod nod.
What if there was no union, then what.... But at a minimum you're probably out of a job. Look, like I said earlier, better the devil we know than the one influenced by corporate lobbyists, because I can guarantee you that if you want to crack the egg known as the RLA that labor isn't going to be the only one with a voice at the table. In any event, the state of regional contracts in years past has nothing to do with the RLA. No one has yet answered my question about how many customers mainline has vs your regional, and how that affects your contract. |
FirstClass,
Pilots aren't weak, but their negotiating leverage sure is. Seniority precludes pilots walking away because they cannot afford to start over. A 10-year pilot Taking a 20% pay cut for a contract period is better than going to the bottom of another seniority list. Golden handcuffs. GF |
Originally Posted by 272922
(Post 2079615)
No idea.
But at a minimum you're probably out of a job.
Originally Posted by 272922
(Post 2079615)
Look, like I said earlier, better the devil we know than the one influenced by corporate lobbyists, because I can guarantee you that if you want to crack the egg known as the RLA that labor isn't going to be the only one with a voice at the table.
Originally Posted by 272922
(Post 2079615)
In any event, the state of regional contracts in years past has nothing to do with the RLA. No one has yet answered my question about how many customers mainline has vs your regional, and how that affects your contract. |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 2079732)
FirstClass,
Pilots aren't weak, but their negotiating leverage sure is. Seniority precludes pilots walking away because they cannot afford to start over. A 10-year pilot Taking a 20% pay cut for a contract period is better than going to the bottom of another seniority list. Golden handcuffs. GF |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2079757)
Half the pilot group?
I don't have time to crack the RLA, I couldn't care less about the RLA and neither should you. I don't understand your question there, but "regional" flying is roughly 1/2 of all departures. I rather call it contract flying not regional flying. |
Originally Posted by 272922
(Post 2079770)
You should go read up on the Continental strike.
You want to play the rancoteur on PSA / Envoy threads, be my guest. You want to spout off on Federal Law, well, hopefully no one follows your advice. I'll spell it out for you. AAG has hundreds of millions of customers. Your employer has exactly one. That fact alone has more to do with the state of your contract that the RLA. |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2079778)
Who said anything about a strike? I'm talking about a loose knit group of like minded pilots operating on their own applying needed pressures while the airline continues to operate. Said pressures can simply be applied by doing your job extremely well and enjoying your time off to the maximum.
But instead, you could just pull your head out of your posterior and realize that the current market forces are most likely going to get you want, and you can avoid the whole sending your MEC to Federal Court thing. But that wouldn't be as cool, I know. |
Originally Posted by 272922
(Post 2079791)
And again, slow downs, sick outs, everyone writing up everything in outstations, everyone all of a sudden SAPing to 65, etc, beyond the established status quo can be construed as an illegal job action and will be met with action in Federal Court. Your union leaders would bear the brunt of it, and also has the responsibility of stopping it.
But instead, you could just pull your head out of your posterior and realize that the current market forces are most likely going to get you want, and you can avoid the whole sending your MEC to Federal Court thing. But that wouldn't be as cool, I know. |
Originally Posted by Is offline
(Post 2079805)
Dude, they can't even find Hillary's emails! You think the Feds are gonna drag a pilot in for illegal job action? You are special.
And please show me where I said pilots. They go after the union and its officials. |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2079761)
Maybe in the past, but not today. Pilot's need to take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves today. It's a pilots market, its being wasted. The ideal situation is the contract airlines simply become to expensive to operate and mainline brings all the flying back in house. One can only hope that their airline goes out of business.
If RJ flying becomes too expensive, how will become cheaper at mainline? It won't. GF |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 2079820)
If RJ flying becomes too expensive, how will become cheaper at mainline? It won't. GF |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 2079820)
If RJ flying becomes too expensive, how will become cheaper at mainline? It won't.
GF Delta already has rates in its current contract for CRJ900s, and they're a lot more than what Endeavor guys currently get, even with the retention bonuses. |
It seems to me the problem is not with the RLA but rather with mediators not recognizing an impasse. I was under the impression that if two parties did not agree after mediation that the mediator was supposed to release both sides to self help. In the last 15 years most airlines have worked under one expired contract or another for several years. To me it seems that the reason airlines have historically been able to get better contracts was because the mediators back then understood an impasse and would release both sides rather that let groups work for years under an expired CBA. I could be wrong, I have not been in aviation that long, so I do not know if that is actually the case
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I think you're right about mediators, and fixing what they've become would be another big win.
Originally Posted by 272922
(Post 2079791)
And again, slow downs, sick outs, everyone writing up everything in outstations, everyone all of a sudden SAPing to 65, etc, beyond the established status quo can be construed as an illegal job action and will be met with action in Federal Court. Your union leaders would bear the brunt of it, and also has the responsibility of stopping it.
But instead, you could just pull your head out of your posterior and realize that the current market forces are most likely going to get you want, and you can avoid the whole sending your MEC to Federal Court thing. But that wouldn't be as cool, I know. |
Originally Posted by Day4mx
(Post 2078810)
When teachers, firemen, police, public transportation, garbagemen, EMTs, etc etc can all strike as self help, it's foolish to think a pilot group striking would ruin this country.
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Oh, and we would have a chance at ditching the RLA if someone like Bernie Sanders was elected. Otherwise, everyone else protects big business, not the working class.
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Originally Posted by deltajuliet
(Post 2079881)
I hear what you're saying, but even if there was a sudden and dramatic uptick in outstation write-ups, what's the company going to claim, that pilots shouldn't be writing up mx issues? Don't we have a legal obligation to do so? Maybe the planes are just getting older and the mechanics aren't maintaining them well. If each individual write-up is individually defendable, I don't think management would have a leg to stand on.
Originally Posted by Chupacabras
(Post 2079885)
Exactly, I doubt our unions would abuse their ability to strike. After all, going on strike is very bad for a company, and that could lead to bankruptcies and generally is not good for business. The risk of a strike to management would definitely bring them to the table unlike now.
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Originally Posted by Gone Flying
(Post 2079860)
It seems to me the problem is not with the RLA but rather with mediators not recognizing an impasse. I was under the impression that if two parties did not agree after mediation that the mediator was supposed to release both sides to self help. In the last 15 years most airlines have worked under one expired contract or another for several years. To me it seems that the reason airlines have historically been able to get better contracts was because the mediators back then understood an impasse and would release both sides rather that let groups work for years under an expired CBA. I could be wrong, I have not been in aviation that long, so I do not know if that is actually the case
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Originally Posted by Gone Flying
(Post 2079860)
It seems to me the problem is not with the RLA but rather with mediators not recognizing an impasse.
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Originally Posted by deltajuliet
(Post 2079881)
I think you're right about mediators, and fixing what they've become would be another big win.
I hear what you're saying, but even if there was a sudden and dramatic uptick in outstation write-ups, what's the company going to claim, that pilots shouldn't be writing up mx issues? Don't we have a legal obligation to do so? Maybe the planes are just getting older and the mechanics aren't maintaining them well. If each individual write-up is individually defendable, I don't think management would have a leg to stand on. |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2080433)
I'm not at all concerned with what I cannot control. But I am concerned with what I and fellow pilots can directly control. We can apply pressure outside of the union and RLA.
In any event, realize that current market conditions are very much in your favor and some grand mx slowdown plan is unnecessary. Or not. "Life is hard. It's harder when you're stupid." |
Originally Posted by 272922
(Post 2080441)
And I keep trying to point out you're not the first pilot with that idea. And you wouldn't be the first pilot (or group of pilots) to suffer legal consequences for it.
You need to provide a workable answer or theory to support your position. You make it sound like what you have to say is a forgone conclusion and its not so far. I'm making an argument and I expect you to do the same if you are going to take on my position. |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2080462)
No you haven't pointed anything out at all. What consequences would there be if 1/2 the pilot group participated in a non union sanctioned event, or what if an airline had no union and 1/2 of the pilots participated in an event. Who will the company sue? Who will the judge rule against? Is it one court case or 500 individual court cases? Does the company just fire 1/2 the pilot group in today's climate?
Now, ask yourself this: if the absence of a union under the RLA granted an employee group strike at will, then why the hell does any airline have a union? The overall answer is the courts have ruled that the lack of a union does not absolve employees from their responsibility to exhaust all avenues of bargaining and negotiation before self help. See ASI, Inc vs IBT in 2014. As to what the consequences of the latter would be, I honestly don't know, but at a minimum you're out of a job. But since you work at a union carrier it's irrelevant to your current situation. To your last question, does the company just fire 500 people today? Well, that first assumes you can actually get 500 people to go along with your plan, and do so quietly enough that the company doesn't get wind of it before hand. How likely is that? Not very. But what you should really be asking yourself is what would you be able to accomplish that market forces aren't already doing? Not much. |
First Class,
Try reading this: AMERICAN AIRLINES INC v. ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION | FindLaw Beyond law, study up on some economics, too. GF |
And this one on ASI vs. IBT
AIRCRAFT SERVICE INTERNATIONAL INC v. INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF TEAMSTERS AFL CIO 117 | FindLaw And NYC Transit strike here at Wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005...transit_strike You are not unique, others have blundered down the same path, in aviation we try to learn from others mistakes, not keep repeating them. BTW, I was on the EAL MEC in 88-89 and was sued, as part of the MEC, personally. The process came to apartment, issued the service and offered my furniture in the event the company won the 1 billion dollars sought. GF |
duplicate
filler |
There is nothing that can be done to stop individual pilots from applying their will. Your regional airline needs you to have a union, its their free police department to keep you in line. The union is your weakness, its what keeps you attached to the RLA, the topic of this thread. I would much rather engage alpa or lawyers and pay a $500 one time fee to negotiate a new contract when needed then cut them loose.
Let's say your have 1000 pilots on the payroll. If 500 of them decide to apply pressure and there is either- 1.) No Union 2.) A disbanded union 3.) A union that strongly does everything in its power to stop the actions (something APA and DALPA never did) The company will unsuccessfully attempt to deal with pilots collectively, but there is no single structure to do so. It's why those animals in the middle east are so successful with their misdeeds- there is no central organization to deal with. 500 of 1000 pilots cannot be fired for just doing their jobs extremely well, cannot be sued for just doing their jobs, there is no organization to sue, there is no organization to deal with. That's my argument. |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 2080642)
And this one on ASI vs. IBT
AIRCRAFT SERVICE INTERNATIONAL INC v. INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF TEAMSTERS AFL CIO 117 | FindLaw And NYC Transit strike here at Wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005...transit_strike You are not unique, others have blundered down the same path, in aviation we try to learn from others mistakes, not keep repeating them. BTW, I was on the EAL MEC in 88-89 and was sued, as part of the MEC, personally. The process came to apartment, issued the service and offered my furniture in the event the company won the 1 billion dollars sought. GF |
Go ahead and try it. The courts have been clear--concerted activity, union or not, can be found be looking at changes in employee behavior from past records. Start writing up altimeters, adding 30 minutes to a 1 hour flight, sudden changes in sick calls will be found illegal self-help. I've almost doubled flight times JFK-MIA, flew TPA-MCO taking 40 minutes flying the procedure turn. None if this is new. Windshields? EA MX must have replaced half the 727's fleet windshields in 3 months. The Max Safety program very carefully unconnected to the union, but still charged with corrupt practices.
They'll just fine everybody. GF |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2080706)
There is nothing that can be done to stop individual pilots from applying their will.
Your regional airline needs you to have a union, its their free police department to keep you in line. The union is your weakness, its what keeps you attached to the RLA, the topic of this thread. The company will unsuccessfully attempt to deal with pilots collectively, but there is no single structure to do so. It's why those animals in the middle east are so successful with their misdeeds- there is no central organization to deal with. You don't get to have it both ways. I would much rather engage alpa or lawyers and pay a $500 one time fee to negotiate a new contract when needed then cut them loose. You think labor lawyers work for a $500 one time fee? Try $500 per hour. If you hire cheap..... 500 of 1000 pilots cannot be fired for just doing their jobs extremely well, cannot be sued for just doing their jobs, there is no organization to sue, there is no organization to deal with. That's my argument.
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2080707)
Both of those cases had union involvement, something I am not advocating. The union is why you cannot strike, its tied to the RLA. Both the union and RLA are a rope around your neck. Simply rid yourself of both by eliminating the union.
"The employees have not voted to be represented by any union, so no labor union is involved. So far as the record shows, no one is authorized to speak for Popescu but Popescu himself, and the company's attempt to speak with him failed because he walked out and slammed the door. One of the adverse parties in this case is “Working Washington,” which is not a union, but a group that describes itself as “a coalition of individuals, neighborhood associations, immigrant groups, labor unions, civil rights organizations, and people of faith.” Working Washington's “Campaign Director” says that although Working Washington “is not seeking to become the bargaining representative” of the employees and has not sought recognition, it advocates for better treatment of workers at the airport." - See more at: AIRCRAFT SERVICE INTERNATIONAL INC v. INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF TEAMSTERS AFL CIO 117 | FindLaw Again, under the RLA, not having a union doesn't mean you can strike whenever you want. |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 2080725)
Go ahead and try it. The courts have been clear--concerted activity, union or not, can be found be looking at changes in employee behavior from past records. Start writing up altimeters, adding 30 minutes to a 1 hour flight, sudden changes in sick calls will be found illegal self-help. I've almost doubled flight times JFK-MIA, flew TPA-MCO taking 40 minutes flying the procedure turn. None if this is new. Windshields? EA MX must have replaced half the 727's fleet windshields in 3 months. The Max Safety program very carefully unconnected to the union, but still charged with corrupt practices.
They'll just fine everybody. GF |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2081052)
How much are they going to fine you? Charges have to be proven.
Then the company has to collect from pilots that make minimum wage. Then do you fine the f/o too? I'm assuming you're a fairly new guy with no experience in or knowledge of Union activity history. |
Originally Posted by Riverside
(Post 2078914)
"Are"
Filler |
Originally Posted by Packrat
(Post 2081079)
To "prove" any charge, all the Company has to do is show a change in behavior from their operational records. If the way you fly your jet some how changes (increased taxi times, longer leg times, etc.) they've got plenty of proof for legal action.
Either that or some other disciplinary action. And yes, they can get the F/O, too. I know of one specific case where two pilots were suspended because they flew a month of turns where the legs average 40-45 minutes longer than the rest of the fleet average. Your F/O is an accomplice to your wrong doing if he simply goes along with your "plan." I'm assuming you're a fairly new guy with no experience in or knowledge of Union activity history. |
Originally Posted by 272922
(Post 2080727)
No, there's not. But that's not the same as saying there are no consequences.
So one the one hand, your company needs you to have a union so they can be the company's enforcers. But on the other hand, the only reason that the "animals in the middle east are so successful with their misdeeds" is that there's no union. You don't get to have it both ways. BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! You think labor lawyers work for a $500 one time fee? Try $500 per hour. If you hire cheap..... So I guess all those pilots at VX and B6 are so dumb for giving up their right to strike because they put a union on property. And all those ten of thousands of pilots at AA, DAL, UAL, FDX, UPS, SWA, etc, etc, etc have done the exact same thing for decades. From the link that GF provided about ASI vs IBT: "The employees have not voted to be represented by any union, so no labor union is involved. So far as the record shows, no one is authorized to speak for Popescu but Popescu himself, and the company's attempt to speak with him failed because he walked out and slammed the door. One of the adverse parties in this case is “Working Washington,” which is not a union, but a group that describes itself as “a coalition of individuals, neighborhood associations, immigrant groups, labor unions, civil rights organizations, and people of faith.” Working Washington's “Campaign Director” says that although Working Washington “is not seeking to become the bargaining representative” of the employees and has not sought recognition, it advocates for better treatment of workers at the airport." - See more at: AIRCRAFT SERVICE INTERNATIONAL INC v. INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF TEAMSTERS AFL CIO 117 | FindLaw Again, under the RLA, not having a union doesn't mean you can strike whenever you want. Why would animals in the middle east need a union? I think you understand my point in that since there is no central authority, they cannot be properly dealt with collectively. But you knew that, you are just making this harder than it needs to be. Not $500 total (you are so precious I could just squeeze you). $500 per pilot to negotiate a contract. You know what needs done, its been done in the past, it can be done again now. It's a pilots market but yet you refuse to acknowledge it. You are not helping the cause. All you are doing is acknowledging the company can do anything they want and you can't do anything, that you are powerless. They can violate your contract at will, but you just have to take it. That sounds weak to me, a small simple and closed off mind. If I'm the only one that feels this way than this generation of pilots is in big trouble. You'll never have what the peers before you have today. |
Originally Posted by FirstClass
(Post 2081146)
Oh boy, where to even start with you. First, you need to grow a set. Don't be scared of every little thing.
I think you understand my point in that since there is no central authority, they cannot be properly dealt with collectively. But you knew that, you are just making this harder than it needs to be. Not $500 total (you are so precious I could just squeeze you). $500 per pilot to negotiate a contract. You know what needs done, its been done in the past, it can be done again now. It's a pilots market but yet you refuse to acknowledge it. |
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