How are we going to get rid of the RLA?
 

Something needs to be done about this monkey, post your suggestions..

My vote is for an ALA

A petition was started a few years ago to have the prospect of its repeal be considered by the White House but it didn't meet the minimum of 100,000 signatures they require for it be seen

It only received 2,090 signatures.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...y-negotiations

In the micro world of our jobs, the RLA is bad. However in the macro economic world the RLA is an absolute necessity. Lose the RLA and you could easily flush this country down the toilet.

Sometimes you have to think a little beyond selfish self interest.

When teachers, firemen, police, public transportation, garbagemen, EMTs, etc etc can all strike as self help, it's foolish to think a pilot group striking would ruin this country.

Yeah pilots wanting to strike because they are on food stamps while flying 76 seat jets is real selfish. Give me a break.

Where you not aware of the pay rates at you employer of choice when you joined Mesa? And you went there anyway?!

Pilots is not stupid!!

Don't involve your unions and you can do whatever you want.

"Are"

Filler

Apparently, you didn't get it..

Typical Union guy response. When you give the common guy grounds to run with, they will win. Which means ALPA will lose. Alpa opposition against the RLA is obvious for one reason, authority to the working class will do more than a union can ever do.

ALPA opposes changing the RLA because common folk can stand up for themselves now. A union is as useful as a politician nowadays.

Take Jesse James and other black leaders, they pretend to fight for the black man but in the end they do what us white men say. Same with a union they pretend to fight for us but in reality they do whatever the top guys can gain from benefit.

Seriously, two things kill me when I see my check, my 401k company match, and my APLA dues, neither equal much

Some more light reading for people interested in the subject: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/un...epeal-rla.html

I disagree with those who say "Be careful what you wish for" and "it's better than the alternative." What alternative? Being able to defend our professions with the same leverage other unions have? I can't think of a profession more perennially under assault than ours, and that's because management has every legal ability to do it. And Packrat, come on. We sure wouldn't want those pesky unions to abuse managemment. :rolleyes:

So the true substantive question that nobody seems to have addressed: How do we adjust/get rid of it?

That's tough because airlines have more lobbyist money than ALPA does. Still, men like Sully are closely listened to in Congress, and influence like that needs to be capitalized on (he's been fighting the good fight, but it's not enough). Certain union representatives have called for discussion on the matter (recently APA's VP Neil Roghair), but as has been mentioned the various airline unions don't want to tackle the beast. They'd rather waste their time and resources fighting 3rd class medical policy and the like. :confused: But changing ALPA leadership appears to be an uphill battle with obstacles including bureaucracy, apathy, ignorance, corruption, and conflicts of interest. Similar to our political system. I hate to be one of those people that trumpets "spreading awareness" as a solution, but I guess it's a start. The more people talk about it, the more the unions are forced to address it. But it needs to be done at the National level, and that's where it's especially hard for Joe Pilot to get his voice heard or ideas spread.

It's doubly difficult because the government knows deep down that if we could strike, airfares would eventually reflect the true expenses of traveling near the speed of sound at the edge of space across vast distances in relative comfort. Because pilot wages have been artificially suppressed by the Railway Labor Act, tickets have been artificially cheap for years. That helps Joe Passenger go see grandma once a year with his family, and Congress doesn't want to lose that. But I'm sorry, there's a cost to doing business. Maybe some of those record profits should go to pilots instead of charities and stock buybacks and astronomical corporate bonuses. But this is another tough aspect of repealing the law.

You'd almost need to prove current pilot wages create a safety concern (i.e. incident from loss of situational awareness due to preoccupation with making ends meet, or a fatigue-related accident because the pilot didn't get adequate rest from typical crashpad problems like snoring roommates and people coming in/leaving). The problem is Colgan is likely the closest example we'll ever get to these scenarios. It raised concerns, but the resulting legislation focused on training time and rest requirements, not any sort of pilot minimum wage.

If we didn't get it then, I don't know if we ever will. So all that being said, I'm not sure what could force Congress's hand on the issue, particularly if ALPA refuses to apply any pressure. It sure would help if ALPA at least made it a bullet point on its list of priorities.

^^^^
This guy is a prime example of why we will never rid ourselves of the RLA: Pilots would rather take below the belt shots at each other than come together for the common good.

Very sad, but seemingly true...

It's an antiquated law that has little to no application in today's society, and it needs to go. It was enacted when 95% of the goods, materials, and people moved within the interior of the country we're moved by rail and on only a handful of railroads. That is no longer the case. Protection of the essential transport of mail, troops, and equipment required by the gov't (which was the purpose for which it was enacted) can be easily accommodated through several modes of transportation and a tremendous number of competing companies within each mode.

Therefore, there is no longer any need for the RLA as its become nothing more than a stinking, rotten old piece of legislative decomposition that management in some companies use to unfairly inhibit or thwart collective bargaining efforts.

You have got to be kidding. What planet are you from??

Planet Management perhaps?

It has been explained to me that ALPA fears opening the RLA can of worms because we could end up with something worse for our group imposed by big business. Another case of their lawyers are better and more expensive than ours

Gee, this evil, mean, nasty piece of legislation called the RLA was also the structure under which ALL existing mainline pilot contracts were negotiated. You know, the ones where all the FOs are well into 6 figures, sometimes above $200 an hour, and CA rates are that much higher. Go back and look at some of the inflation adjusted rates of the contracts signed just prior to 9/11.

But yeah, TOTALLY anti labor. I mean, no one could EVER expect to get a good contract under the RLA.

Or maybe, just maybe, **** poor regional contracts have nothing to do with the RLA.

But nah, that would take too much thought to reach that conclusion......

Why is everyone so concerned with RLA? Don't involve your union and just ignore it. Do what you want. Write up the airplanes in the outstation. No over time. Trade down to minimum hours.

I mean you have all the tools you could ever need. Tell your company to find their nearest ointment and apply it generously.

I've had this conversation with senior mainline ALPA folks, and this is what they say. Both sides are afraid to open the can of worms. Look at 117, management has to hire more pilots; pilots lost trip efficiency and time at home but now can be forced to block more than before. It is nice to not have 8-hour overnights anymore, but the longer overnights come out of your days off.

I'm still a bit confused as to why so many people complain , when they know exactly what they are getting themselves into as far as industry , pay , qol. If you want a crappy job go work in a warehouse making 10 bucks an hour and then ***** .Nobody forced you to work at the airlines . If you don't like it then leave and go work a job that requires manual labor and we'll see how fast you come back .

Pilots complain because there's no alternative to going the regional route. Maybe a few guys make it to a major/legacy going corporate first, but by and large we all have to go through the regional $h17 show.
Fair points, but you'd really need organization and union pressure to get a significant portion of guys at a given airline to do this, whether from their ignorance, apathy, or lone-wolf mentality.
Regionals are where we need to get rid of the RLA most, but since you bring up historical contracts, before 9/11 senior United guys could make nearly half a million, adjusted for inflation. Today, even after their shiny new Extension, they still lag nearly $200,000 behind that. Maybe with threat of a strike those pilots could've retained their pensions and gotten the Holy Grail of Restoration years ago.
I see where they're coming from but just don't buy it. Not much could be worse than indefinite negotiations where management acts in bad faith and you're unable to prove it. And even when you can, you're told you can't do anything about it. Honestly, what realistic outcome of updated RLA legislation could be worse than what we have? Non-rhetorical question.

There is always multiple ways to look at issues.

Just because there is no alternate route doesn't mean you are entitled to anything. You can take it or leave it, nobodies twisting your arm.

The airlines themselves have created this issue of the pilot shortage, its theirs to solve. With any luck, regionals will simply go out of business and the flying will be reabsorbed by mainline.

Regarding the union comment, you do not want them involved in any way. If you are going to take on the company with write ups, no overtime, and other pressures, that's on you or a loose knit group of people, but the union cannot in any way be involved or they will be sued. American and Delta are examples of a good idea that had some wrong decisions.

Pilots are weak, as a result management takes advantage of you. But if people wake up, they can realize they have more strength than they though.

Its pretty easy to apply the right pressure. You just need to speak their language- $$$$

Huh? Pilots can strike and have in the past.

FirstClass, understand and agree, just not sure you could get enough pilots onboard to make a noticeable enough dent in operations without organization, and you can't organize.

Jesse JACKSON is a black activist. Jesse James is a TV motorhead.

Ignorance is bliss....

What industry do you work in? Do you not understand the economic impact transportation has? Think railroads, not just jets. That's what the RLA is all about.

Now I can see your argument if you want all the RLA benefits that accrue to railroad employees extended to us. But to get rid of the RLA entirely means economic suicide for America.

No, I'm implying that the RLA isn't an impediment to good contracts.

Answer me this: How many customers does mainline have? How many customers does your regional have? How do you think that influences regional airline contracts?

Except that courts have held that any change from status quo qualifies as an illegal job action.

What you've laid out is the result of airline bankruptcies, not the RLA. Companies are still subject to market forces, and in the post 9/11 environment an over supply of pilots and treacherous business environment (how many airlines closed down or have disappeared since then?) doesn't do much to prop up pilot salaries.

So yeah, you want to propose an airline strike in an environment where a lot of guys are already on the street? Pretty sure management will take that deal all day long and twice on Sundays.

Here's one for you: under the RLA the NMB has held that representation must be system-wide for each craft or category of employee. What if management got rid of that little tidbit. How would you like separate contracts and seniority list for each base or type within a single carrier? If you think there's a whipsaw now......

I get that most of you stopped learning about the RLA the moment someone told you that you can't strike without a release from the NMB, and while that is an impediment to self help you've got to put that in context of the entire deal. For example while we can strike without release, the company can't arbitrarily change working conditions nor lock us out and hire replacements. I will grant you that in the current pilot shortage environment the latter is unlikely, but have we always been in a shortage? Will we always have a shortage?

There is much to be said for the devil we know, vs the devil we don't, the latter being influenced by the lobbying arm of F&H.

Thanks, tool, obviously wrote it wrong

That's why you leave the union out of it. There's nobody to sue. The union is a detriment to getting things done. Everytime your company violates your contract they do so with impunity. You can exact the same pressure they do if you are strong enough as pilots.

Except that the courts have held that the union has an affirmative duty to stop a slow down, and can impose damages that are the obligation of the union.

American took the APA to court in 1999 and won 45 million after AMR was able to have an injunction issued against an illegal sickout.

Railroad labor is not even included in the RLA Amy more. Where have you been? Look at the west cost ports that were under the RLA a few years ago that went on strike.... Where they all rounded up and arrested? Pilots are idiots for believing that the RLA has power over them. If the union had any power at all they would hold a strike vote and go on strike, but they will arrest everyone.

Then everyone will have just quit en masse. Company finds new pilots all at the bottom of the payscale.

http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/stream...top_medium.jpg

The last attempt to amend the RLA was not labor-friendly:

"Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.) introduced a bill (S. 1327) to change the way airline labor disputes on major carriers are resolved. McCain’s bill would replace the right to strike with baseball-style interest arbitration under which neutral arbitrators would choose the best final offer from labor or management."

--Journal of Transportation Law, Logistics, & Policy, (Spring, 2003)

They simply couldn't show that the union did enough to stop it. They needed to be more aggressive. Wink wink nod nod.

What if there was no union, then what....

Europe goes on strike every other weekend, and there is nothing better about their airline jobs.