Are there going to be CFI's anymore?
 

With all these regionals lowering minimums, who's going to teach these kids to fly?

www.allatps.com



Good night,
LAFF

I hope not

20 D-Jets in 2008?!!?! That's going to definitely change training for a quite a few in the next year or so. More mini-jet pilots!

i'm becoming a CFI! :) studying for one of the writtens right now!

Thats awsome... don't sell out, get your 1000 and 100 and try to make this industry a better place

i plan on it! Gonna build up my hours for one of the better companies.

C'mon LAFF, YOU said you were gonna stop with the ATP cr@p! :D :D

I guess bad habits are hard to get rid of!:(


PS. BTW I still firmly believe you work for ATP and are here undercover to promote them. So far you've been supporting my conspiracy theory.

One of the smarter things I've heard

Not one of the smarter things I've heard.

Lets hope there will be a shortage of CFIs.. Maybe flight schools will be forced to pay better...

Cfi
 

Anyone who spends the money to get a CFI is ill-informed. Today there are more CFI's than there are students. You can wallow as an instructor for years or simply pay the money to ATP and get a real job now.

If you want to teach be a CFI. If you want to be an airline pilot then pay the man and become an airline pilot.

Times have changed. The old CFI route is a waste of time.

SkyHigh

I think you might be right if someone is forty years old and doesn't want to screw around. For me though, having the CFI is the fastest way to build flight time and even though it doesn't pay great, at least I'm getting paid instead of paying someone else.

Gloom and doom
 

Thats is just gloomy AND incorrect!

Just to name a few; Ari ben, flight safety, flyoft, naples and miami-air are all hungry for fresh CFI's. I spoke to the Ari ben Aviator and EFT chief pilots recently and they are turning down student bc. of lack of instructors. This is a result of the hiring rates at the regionals. instructors on average log 80-100h/mo.

Regards

Ps: Baron you beat me to it!!

I would love to CFI agian, I enjoyed it 121 is great but its a job, nothing in the world like Grass strips $300.00 Burgers and the freedom to go/do whatever you want.

CFI route
 

I am sure that there are examples of places where CFI's are needed, but nationwide it is a dying profession. In the 1970's there were four students for every instructor now the students out number. At a few select flight school I am sure that it is a good option however for most it is a loosing profession.

SKyHigh

Why is aviation the only job that you have spend money on for an interview. ATP is not training (The Airline Transition) so therefore I see it as PFJ. You're paying money to skip ahead of much, much, much harder working CFIs so you can get there sooner.

And that is why this is another form of a race to the bottom. I hope you enjoy ruining this profession.

God help us all.

I second that... I commend you. Spread that attitude around!

Maybe some of the CFI that are here could chime in about the hiring conditions in their area so we could get some idea of what its really like out there.

I am teaching at a FBO that is currently overwhelmed with CFI's. We have nearly 30 of them, mostly part-timers. However, I think this is due in part to the fact that another large school in the area went out of business last Spring and quite a few of the CFIs from that oepration came here. The hourly pay is $30, so I am sure that is a factor as well.

There are several here that have other careers and would never consider moving to the regional airlines.

I have struggled to find any students. However, I started right at the end of the year last year and was told that there arent many new students starting up during the holidays.

Anyone else care to share whats happening in their area?

With these D jets going to places like ATP. Do you think that this type of crap will make it tougher for guys without jet time to get job? Right now all you need is 500 light prop time and 100 multi prop. Will there eventually be 500TT 100ME 50Jet requirement and then everyone will have to now also spend loads of money for crap-jet time? I mean, its hard enough to get multi time....

what does everyone think? could be bad ATP is doing no?

I'm a CFI on chicago's northside and things here are alright. I got hired at the begining of the slow winter season and I still manage to keep busy as a part timer for now and moving up to full time soon. We will be hurting for instructors soon and all the other schools on the field have instructors wanted signs up all the time so demand here is real high. The guys who have been here since last summer tell me we'll all be working 12 hour days 7 days a week and flying as much as possible come spring.

I do not think that becoming a CFI was a mistake at all. I could very easliy take out another loan or something to that effect and go to atp but I think that I am learning so much right now about everything that it would be silly for me to go anywhere right now. Being a CFI provides learning experiences almost daily. From interpersonal, (who has ever worked with the guy everyone else passes on?) to PIC attitude, (next time please dont pull the mixture on final) to IFR regulations and everything else.

I guess if you have the money to spend go ahead and take the short cut most people would but I feel like this is the place and route that works best for me. Not to mention that I have already paid enough for my training, why should I have to pay to learn how to fly a CRJ just to get an interview?

I second that as well. If we made more maybe people wouldn't be so quick to leave for mesa!

Atp
 

I am not drinking the ATP koolaid, but I went there as a student, and then instructed there for about 17 months. I don't agree with the transition program, I think that is buying your way into a job. But it was a great place to work and build multi time as an instructor. It was fun going where you wanted to go and fly when you wanted to fly. Anyway I recommend to all pilots out there to become a CFI, it makes you a better pilot in the long run. I had some guys in my new hire class months back who had never instructed, and they were lacking basic fundementals that all pilots should have at the current level. They all made it through training though. These guys had always been students, and they will continue to be students for months to come. Not that I am still not learning how to fly the CRJ, but I feel that me and my fellow instructors who were in my new hire class were above the learning curve of those who weren't instructors, and the transition to 121 pilot was easier on us.

You have got a lot to learn. Pay to get a job. How stupid is that?
Go to college, get a degree, get paid to instruct, and then go to pretty much any job you want. There are many ways to make good money as a CFI. You are not seeing the whole picture.
Or, just pay your way into a regional job at ATP and be stuck there at that level the rest of your life while the rest of us move up into higher careers.

Sort of of topic, but - has anyone been successful being a cfi part time?

Yes, I instruct part time. I am in my last semester at college. I go to school Monday - Thursday, and freelance instruct at my local airport on the weekends. I have clients that have their own aircraft, and others that rent an airplane from the airport. I make more money than a CFI at a flight school because I charge my own fee and keep every bit of it. You can freelance and be successful if you know how to market yourself. In addition, you will be building your flight time and gaining invaluable experience that you cannot get anywhere else but by instructing.

Thanks for calling me a looser! What about the students who can't afford to buy there airline job and choose to flight instruct instead? I will let them know YOU will be paying the bill for them to get there job. Whats your address?

How much time did you build in those 17 months? Reason I ask - its possible to attend ATP and then CFI there to get the experience / value of being a CFI before moving to the regionals.

Was your time as a CFI there a waste?

-LAFF

I am working as a CFI for an academy in CA. They are hiring as many as they can and their pay is one of the best I've seen for CFIs. My friend is also working in Vegas and I know in October they were looking to hire 5-6 in the next month. My friend also got a job offer in Billings. Jobs are out there if you are willing to look and relocate, just gotta be willing to ask about wages and number of students.

Once again, be aware that SkyHigh is NOT EVEN IN OUR INDUSTRY currently. Yet he claims to know more than anyone else on any area (at least it sure seems that way). He even knows whether or not you are happy at your current job, or are just lying about it! His $.02 are worth about half that.

What do you use for a syllabus? Do you have your students phase check with more experienced instructors?

I use the Sporty's Courses. They include a syllabus, as well as a complete ground course. I do not do stage checks for 2 reasons. One, I train part 61 and it is not required. Second, I am the only instructor there, so I don't have anyone to do a stage check.

Happy?
 

There are even some people who are happy with prison life. I can't help it if someone is on a self destructive path.

Often the best vantage is from a distance.

If your goal is to be an airline pilot then your time as a CFI is near valueless, unless of course you are instructing in modern transport category aircraft.

I remember not to long ago companies wouldn't accept time as a CFI towards the minimums.


SkyHigh

"If your goal is to be an airline pilot then your time as a CFI is near valueless"

LOL. I think you post this stuff and then sit back and laugh.

People. Don't take Skyhigh seriously.

"I remember not to long ago companies wouldn't accept time as a CFI towards the minimums"

Source? I've been flying since 78 and I never heard that one before. Now I think you're making stuff up as you go along.

Yeah, gotta throw the BS flag on this.

Gee.... wonder how I got a job then? Better call my airline and let them know my time is "valueless" and they should really re-think their decision to hire me! :mad:

Can you get the same or even better flight experience w/o being a CFI, yep. Normally, to do that however, you have to be really lucky, if you fall into some 135 type stuff or business style twin flying, then you're probably set, and will gain some very practical real world weather conditions, along with great instrument skills.

Truth though, is that most people aren't overly lucky, and as a result, they have to go get a job somewhere to gain this experience. CFI'ing is probably the most direct way to do this.

I say, CFI, enjoy it, and take your pick of what company you want to go work for. That'll keep you from getting stuck at a company that you won't be happy with.

The CFIs will be us.
 

Guys, there are individuals that do not want to go fast or have "Been There, Done That" and like seeing someone else get that high we first got.:) :rolleyes: :cool: I have lost four flying positions due to restructuring or bankruptcies. After the last extended furlough, I went to cube land. I am now back in the chase for a seat in the pointy end. Why do I do it? Because it is a passion!

Some guys thankfully like to share that same passion. Also, it is part of being a professional. Giving back to your craft, by mentoring or teaching makes you better!

Just a question!!!!!
 

Just a question not insinuating anything or taking sides!

What is the difference between a 500hour cfi, and a 1000hour cfi?(besides the hour difference) and how can all those single engine hours and part 91, 141 rules and reg's help me at a air carrier operating under 121?

Like I said, just a question still a student!

Kinda off the topic but I think this ties into the conversation.

I went to a smaller 141 college where the whole mentality was to do an internship with XYZ airlines, buy your 100 multi and when you get 500 TT your out the door to the airline (AKA SJS). Almost to the point of feeling entitled to a job when they get 500/100. I didn’t buy into the whole do an internship for a semester and work full time for a company (for free) just to get lowered minimums. Go out there and get a job to build up your time, then go get some good experience flying freight or whatever you want to do. When I voiced my opinion about wanting to work at a place like airnet, everyone thought I was crazy. OMG, single-pilot IFR, are you crazy, you won’t get to fly a nice, new jet!!!! But all they hear are stories of people who never had jobs like that, just went straight from instructing to the regionals. They talk about how dangerous it is and my favorite quote, don't they fly props! All from people who have absolutely zero experience with that type of flying. But, if that’s what they want then I am more than happy for then, I'm just one of those people who don't need to fly a jet to be happy, especially at the pay rates of some of those places!

I would be interested in hearing some of routes guys took back in the 90's as far as how many hours they instructed before they moved onto their next job. How many hours did it take to find a job in 135/121 back then?

Teach
 

Those who can do the rest flight instruct.

Flight instructing does nothing to prepare the instructor for a life as a transport category airline or jet charter pilot other than giving him something to write in his log book. In both the civilian and military world the instructor is the bottom rung of the pilot ladder. Instructors move on as soon as possible dropping their certifications as fast as they can.

As a flight instructor little can be gained from working with a pool of similarly low time instructors/pilots and students. True advances in knowledge and experience come from situations that offer more experienced peers and leadership.

Flight instructors become experts at part 16 and 91. Both of which have little value to the airlines or charter applications. They will have to relearn entirely new parts of the regulations, rules that often contradict what they so painstakingly learned prior.

Flight instructors sit idle helping students to develop skills during basic maneuvers while their own skills fade.

If offered a choice one should jump at an opportunity to go strait to an airline situation and will loose nothing by skipping the CFI scene altogether. If one really likes instructing and gets a personal ego boost by soaking up hero worship from neophytes then perhaps they should stay as an instructor. The evidence however is in, real pilots dump instructing as soon as possible or work diligently to skip the entire experience. Regional airlines hire a large amount CFI's because that is what is being offered. I guarantee however, that if two pilot of equal flight time and education were sitting in the interview room together, the one with real experience will get hired first.

Pilots fly, instructors teach. If your real desire is to get out there and fly then you will find a way.

Skyhigh