Sure, going to hit the gym but I'll see if I can draw it out, unless someone takes care of it by the time I get back.

God damn guys it was something new to me with someone very experienced right there next to me making sure everything still went as planned. Stop being such a dick as if you know it all. The whole "Information is power" and "a pilots license is a license to learn" and all the other crap posted about that stuff is complete BS here.

Someone comes in to ask a question about something they were confused about and didn't completely understand and all you can do is ridicule, talk smack, ect? I mean give me a break. If you can honestly make that statement and not feel like a hypocrite at all then you're the biggest idiot here.... I'd hate to be a captain sitting next to such a cocky, arrogant, pompus, and lets not forget insurmountable FO.

Is your goal really to completely deter anyone from asking a question on something they either have never been taught, never experienced, or can't figure out? Why are you always so rude? What provokes you? You simply getoff on it?

I wasn't think of this in the plane but you can use the 1 in 60 rule. By looking at my distance from the fix on the GPS along with the radial to it I could have calculated at 175nm(where i was initially) to 60nm(where I wanted to go on the fix. 175nm-60nm=115nm difference. Take the radial on the GPS and take difference between it and the radial I'm flying to.

If this is what he's talking about. Of course I'm guessing it's not legal. Though I don't think doing it his way is either lol.

Anyway I got my answer. I'm done here. Thanks I think.

Yes I did. Thanks a lot bro.

Listen bud, you can ask questions all day long about anything you want but when you're out there slinging aluminum through the air is not the time to be making it up as you go. My issues are this:
1. You should have known how to use a basic function of your GPS unit. I taught Garmins from handheld VFR units to the G1000 for several years and believe me, they are good for more than just hitting DIRECT.

2. You should have at least understood that when you file an RNAV equipment suffix (GPS is a form of RNAV) then ATC can and often does assign you direct to random points in space. If you wanted to fly VOR to VOR you should have filed the appropriate code.

3. You put a lot of blind faith in the guy sitting next to you. Just because he has 25 bazillion hours doesn't mean he is capable of ensuring that you are navigating correctly to a random point in space using nothing more than his experience and intuition.

4. When you realized you didn't know how to get there you just winged it. It worked for you this time because the geometry wasn't too different. What if you had been in Rockies instead of the plains of Texas? What if you were non-radar and there was other traffic nearby that you blundered into because you accepted a clearance, which ATC expected you to follow, but were incapable of following accurately.

5. Just because you weren't ever taught something doesn't mean you shouldn't know it. Crack open a book sometime. Namely the Garmin user's manual. If its in your airplane and operable you should know how to use it.

So I'm not just busting your balls for the fun of it. I'm busting your balls because you COULD have endangered yourself and others. Today you got lucky. Simple as that.

I don't think that would be legal because wind could blow you off the desired track and you would have no way of knowing or correcting. Legally you need something that can actually get you there in a straight line...VOR-based RNAV, GPS, or vectors.

I din't mean to give you too much of a ration, just wanted to emphasize the importance of precise IFR procedures. If it makes you feel any better I failed my first CFII oral because I tried to describe a similar technique (for a hypothetical lost comm situation). :o

Slinging aluminum through the air is not the time to learn? What did you do for your private, isntrument, commercial, multi, cfi, ect? Sit in a sim? You trusted someone with only 300 or so hours and you say a guy who's flown since the 60's doesn't know. He had everything under control I was the one that didn't know what was going on. If you can't trust him you can't trust anyone. This was me and a very experience individual. Climb down off the cross there mr high and mighty. You just enjoy being a smart arse and that kind of attitude doesn't belong here in my opinion. How many hours do you have? Why should I trust you flying me around? You say you're busting my balls by making a smug one liner? No you have bad attitude. Forget I ever mentioned anything. I'll pretend there wasn't anything I could never figure out then sit down get online anonymously and play your card.

I said it wasn't the time to make it up as you go. If you can't figure it out at the very least ask ATC for a heading until you CAN figure it out. As I've said before, number of hours doesn't mean squat. I'm willing to bet you have more time than I do but you can't make your GPS do something it is quite capable of with just a few button pushes and knob twists. That fact that I knew how to do it you didn't just goes to show that number of hours is irrelevant. Its what you did with those hours. I'll say it again: you got lucky today. I'm glad you learned something. Hopefully it will keep you out of trouble in the future. I think what irks me the most is the ignorance or disregard (or both) for the precision that operating in the IFR environment requires.

Could calculating your heading and using the DME from the GPS not count? You'd know when you were being blown off course because your DME would change. Kinda like an arc? I'm still 99.99% sure illegal but the curiosity wheels are turning.

So what's the guy getting his IFR rating doing? Yes I didn't know how to do RNAV on the 530. there are two of us. What part of that are you missing? I'm sure there are plenty of things I've done you haven't. Plenty of things I've experienced you haven't. I still don't walk around high and mighty and there is no excuse for smart arse remarks in a thread where someone is here to honestly try and learn something. You still need to grow up. Case closed.

Hey TD,
I didn't know how to do that either and I've taught using those things for hundreds of hours. Since you brought it up I thank you cause now I can go teach it and bust my students on it:D. hehe

Here, this would get you going in the right direction, enough time to setup the GPS. (see attachment)

Somebody hit me with another one, I can draw it out too if you want. Preferably something with a larger difference in course.

I agree with the others though, don't accept a clearance you can't do. I would've at least asked for a vector from ATC to get me going in the right direction if I were in your shoes.

Everyone's picking on the GPS portion. You complained about screaming down and going too fast at the IAP. How about a procedure turn? You can get away 1.5k high and fast in a prop most of the time, but probably not meet any stabilized approach criteria. You're starting off learning the wrong way to do things. IMHO

Fosters you are one sicky puppy. I was thinking along the same lines. But more along the lines of a triangle. I'm gonna pour over what you did a little more. I might have a couple questions. If you constantly update your position using the DME on the GPS you can constantly stay on course and you'll know the exact heading. You can do it like a DME arc. Like I said I don't know the legalities of it. As long as you update it every few degrees it shouldn't be a real problem however if you do manage to get off your course too much it would be one hell of a pain then calculating how far you have left to go then calculate the new correction to get on the radial of your old correction from the point you left in space initially BAM there's a headache.

Yeah, it's more of an exercise in SA and for fun than for anything else in this day and age. I suppose you could always use it VFR to go from one point to another, or go direct to an airport as long as you knew it's relationship from a VOR (rad/distance).

But it's still kinda nifty.

True. It was all stabalized and completely within regs. The only thing was we were fast. Very fast and I had never been put in a situation where I had to slow something that powerful down in that short of time. The rapid descent was not on the approach phase. It was within a close milage to it which was why the descent was made. We then leveled out around 240kts. Then the decisions came on the best way to slow it down more. The debate between us was if it would have been better to maintain altitude with lowe power to bleed off, dump flaps at 210kts then gear at 176kts(which would have taken time at while going so fast we would have eaten up valuable milage) or to simply nose her over. From the point i was given the odd clearance to the point I was on the ground it was practice. To do something I had never done in a machine I had never done it in while someone very knowledgeable oversaw the exercise. Several times we could have taken an easier route but I had never been in those situations and it would be a shame not to take advantage of them. One day I might be forced in one. He asked how I'd rather get down. I said I wasn't sure. He said pick one. So I did and tried it out. Since all this happened I'm sure monday he'll force me to do a quick descent the other way so I can find the answer. There were no PAX or anything like that. Just us two. I found out a lot about what the aircraft is capable of. I wouldn't think you could simply nose one on over like that. I'm use to the kind that get shock cooled ect. That's an important thing. The approach was never in question. The questions were A)How to do the specific radial from a specifc location on the 530/430 and B)Why on earth I was given that really lame clearance then held at high altitude for song long.

Maybe I forgot to say this. The kicker is the control thought it was odd too. When I wrote it all down and replied I looked at bossman like wtf?? and the same instant I did that the control said "Hey it's strait from houston, not from me". We were still on with albuquerque. I know we were about to be handed off to Houston but that was for another 10 min or so and we were right ontop of the mexican border in the middle of the desert. Just thought it was all strange. Didn't see any UFO's though

Laughlin approach pulls that crap all the time flyin' into DRT. They dump us in high on a radial all the time.

Don't worry about the critical comments, you did the right thing in asking and learning how to handle it in the future.

I'm sure the old man knew how to do it and was just seeing how you'd handle it. He did nothing knowing that you were so close to the course that there was no harm in it.

Fun doin' a "chop and drop" in a turboprop, huh? ;)

Absolutely....

Fosters have you ever submitted your handwriting to say.... the FBI for analysis?

First off, I just want to say thanks for asking the question TD...I havent used a panel mount GPS since training, and had completely forgotten about tuning in a point in space like that.

Now on the other hand, I think that the CA should have corrected you during the maneuver, rather than letting you proceed with it, when you obviously didnt know how to correctly do it. I think if you had simply asked ATC for a vector to the 310/60 fix, it would have saved alot of "what if im doing this wrong" heartache. All in the name of saftey.

The approach?...no real comments, except vectors slightly further out could have been more beneficial. In my limited experience, it seems better to have dumped in your drag before beggining the descent. would have helped ya get down =) But it worked out alright, so...

Good luck and fly safe!

I'm getting a little lost now. You say that you were flying, talking to ATC, and writing down the clearance? What was this so-called 25,000 hour professional in the other seat doing? If he had availed himself to doing something other than folding his arms and watching you squirm, you wouldn't have been as behind the airplane. I'm just not sure I get it.

You could have done a Fix-to-Fix! :D

He is a freightdog give the guy props.

He was watching me giggling. Of course I wouldn't have been as behind at all in that situation if we had split the load but I wouldn't have learned as much either. Now that stuff is hard coded. That was the point. It's like me letting a student do his first stall and watching while I know he's about to spin the plane. I've taught roughly 45 guys now and I've learned I can either spend a week yelling RIGHT RUDDER, wasting time, or I can let them spin it and they'll never do it again. Sometimes you have to fail, and do so miserably, to find your limitations so you can work within them, work on extending them, and becoming better at what you do. Nothing wrong with it. There was a guy in Uvalde that never flew on windy days, one day he was solo, it got windy, he crashed. He never subjected himself to the harsh environments with someone more experienced to learn from. Absolutely nothing wrong with what we did in the aircraft. The fact that it was a twin turbine we decided to do a little training in instead of a C-172 seems to freak people a little. But now if I have to "chop and drop" it's no thang

Crew are you still flying tweets? Where are you based out of I was told they were all decomissioned. When you track select do you get those or are they for some kind of special training?

Your terminology is incorrect, and therefore confusing. If you were on the 306 degree radial, and proceeding direct, 126 degrees would have been your course, not your radial.

The incorrect terminology, and the unfamiliarity with the capabilities of the navigation equipment aboard, and which you took credit for by filing /G, casts doubt on your abilitites. Then, trying to do something that you haven't learned to do casts doubts on your judgment. We're glad you survived, but hope you'll contemplate the events seriously before attempting another "learning experience."

If ATC asks you to do something that you don't know how to do, confess, and ask for something different. Faking it can get you killed.





The descent you described does not happen every day. It is not well within the capabilities of airplane or pilot. It does not fit within the parameters of normal maneuvers.

The guy you were flying with said to continue. He was wrong. It is dangerous to descend below 800AGL IN IMC. It is more dangerous to do it at idle power and 240ish knots, and to be screaming down at the runway, not configured to land. You lived -- that doesn't make it safe, smart, or legal. I submit it was unsafe, unsmart, and illegal. I don't care how much experience that guy has in the airplane, or how little you have, never trust him again. NEVER. From your description, we just came pretty close to reading the NTSB Prelim report about the two of you at Laughlin. :(


HOMEWORK: Study "Stable Approach"





Be safe out there.:)








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how about......unable, give me a vector.

You're righ I probably missused the terms in the statement. Why do you consider it wrong to go below 800AGL in IMC? We were on the GPS approach. If there is confusion on this I'll restate but somewhere previously I stated we weren't doing those things during the approach. It was before the approach. We had to do a quick descent to get down to level out and bleed off speed. Over the IAF we were high. However I chose to level out to slow down more. Once at 210 I put down flaps and at 176kts put down gear then shortly after dumped in more flaps. During the descent we were not in actual. low level clounds as we approached the edge of the lake. We then went in completely level just fast. When I say coming in hot on the runway I don't mean 200kts. As I stated I setup the aircraft for everything in advance. My final is 30% on the torque at 135kts. However when coming in on short final at 150kts as I broke out with runway in sight we were at 20% on the torque. Coming in much faster but with less power and bleeding. Eventually we'd slow down but I underestimated when and as the fellow stated we landed just peftect.

The aircraft never exceeded any limits. Why would you say the aircraft is uncapable or unsafe in a steeper descent? Clear day with low cloud layer starting over the lake after the front that came through. We never went 800agl until we were on the GPS 13 and that was part of the approach. To say to never trust a man you've never met seems pretty harsh. What we did wasn't even close to the dangers of spinning an aircraft or doing stalls or short field landings ect. It was just a more powered back quicker descent. And we did not break any rules or laws. This post wasn't about what happened in that aspect in the aircraft. It was a training exercise. The concern was all the factors that led us to have to do those things.

Would you consider doing stalls or killing engines in flight dangerous and out of the capabilities of that aircraft? Boss hired the testpilot of it to give him his annual checkout for insurance and those are the exact things that were done in it. Just because it was beyond my abilities since I had never done it before says nothing about the abilities and experience of the man next to me. He's a very safe individual. Very professional and the most knowledgable aviator I've met. He gets the respect of many people that come in here. Just because we came in fast for me doesn't mean it was anything unusual for him. To ask me not to trust him yet trust a guy who's flying the regionals and I've never met is asking a whole lot. Once again. As some have skipped over it. While I was trying to figure out what to do he was in complete control. Just like a student learning in a 172 while under the hood I was learning something new in the Merlin. No big deal on that part. It was the clearance and way to meet that clearance I was confused with, he knew what to do, I walked in this morning to tell him I figured it out then he walked me through the process to do it on the 430 then xfer it into the 530 so i don't have to change everything up and lose the most useful screen at that point in time. keep my situational aweness up. he knew what was going on he wanted to see if I could figure out. So no tossing stones, you can't get any of your ratings without being put in unfamiliar situations while having someone in control next to you.

I didn't file it. I just flew it and tried to see if I was up to the task and was doing fine till I got tossed that curveball. Now I'll be looking for a new curveball.

someone once told me it's when you fly with that ''ace of the base'' pilot that you really gotta remember to never let your guard down. I personally wouldn't do anything outside of my own limits no matter who is sitting next to me.

Someone's got to teach you. You start from nothing as a preprivate. You have no limits. Like I said it was very exciting for me and I was the one behind the ball. Doesn't mean the guy next to me had any issues what-so-ever. If things would have gotten out of control he would have taken over. All I do all day with my students is let them almost fly off the side of a runway just to take over at the last second and explain what went wrong. You pracitice emerg descents for commercial ect. so what was so dangerous there? It's required to learn how to do. Not to mention to get the high altitude endorsement it's recommended to learn. All I'm hearing now is kneejerk reactions to something being blown out of proportion. Like I said is killing one engine, doing stalls, emerg procedures, spiraling descents, slowflight, steep turns ect. dangerous just because you're in a bigger more powerful aircraft? If not then why would a simple throttle chop and nose over be dangerous? Never exceed any airspeeds and never really went over 1g. Give me a break on the dangerous aspect of what happened.

ahhh...finally someone else sees what I saw right away.

I don't preptend to be all knowing...I know that I am NOT all knowing (hahaha).

First, you should have asked for a heading to get you started and then asked the gazillion-hour guy next to you how to do it in the Garmin. I guarantee you, if he has a gazillion hours, he probably had no clue. Old guys don't do new technology well in general (not a slam, the truth).

Second, do as someone else said and bust out the manual and FIGURE IT OUT. You are now on a heading and ATC will keep an eye on you until you tell him you are direct to the fix.

Third, the ENTIRE part about your configuration is what troubled me the most. I don't care how experienced the guy next to you is. An approach as f'd up as you described is in no way stabilized and will get you killed sooner or later.

Therein lies my beef.

The descent wasn't on the approach. It was leading to it. The approach was high and fast. Worse comes to worse just go missed from that point. He knew how to do it today. I only have the 430 software to play with so today after I couldn't figure out how to load it correctly he walked me out to the plane and showed me. You're right I could have done different things. I was somewhat besides myself when I heard what they wanted me to do and couldn't figure out why so I starting going about it one way which was wrong. I never stated otherwise. If you take a very careful look at the topic of the thread it states "I was confused. could use input" by that I meant on what someone would do in that situation. Sitting down at a desk and hindsight being 20/20 everything suggest seems very logical and I have no idea why I just didn't ask. However the actual flying of the aircraft is no big deal. At no point were we out of control. I watch the T1's fly 20ft apart all day then do descents way crazier than that. Give them a call and let them know they are all knocking on death's door. It's only wrong if it's beyond your abilities. It was beyond mine which was the training reason for it. it might be beyond yours which is why the kneejerk freaked out reactions. However, it wasn't nearly beyond his. So just give that part a rest. Here is a screenshot of a GPS of exactly what was going on. I don't know why the one airport is there. But it shows me heading to DRT then I put in the fix here to show where they were wanting me to turn to. I could have been slightly closer or slightly further away. The border is right there and I was over open desert which is why it was confusing I received it in the first place and was somewhat shocked. Then why they held me up that high for that long was weird to me as well. I've been in and out many times and never received that before. However the other guy said he'd done it a few times. Here's the pic. Doesn't it seem like a waste? I guess I still don't get why they gave it to me.

the whole flight was caught on video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cwmT...elated&search=

so much for the educational aspect of things. I'll just consider this discussion complete since it's impossible to keep things on the level.

Good luck with that. You're entire first flight in a jet is gonna be outside of your own limits.

I'm going for brevity this time. When asking myself if I should do something, I ask:

Is it legal?

Is it safe?

Is it smart?

With those questions in mind, consider the following:
Not legal -- not a stable approach, not normal maneuvers.

Not safe -- what are the options when you scream through the cloud deck at 800', spot an obstacle, or realize you have an excessive sink rate with the power at idle, and the wheels in the well?

Not smart -- especially if you've never done anything remotely like it before.






I'm not usually harsh, but I think it's merited in this instance.

You don't know what his abilities are -- you know yours -- and you exceeded them.

He is not safe -- your story proves it.

He is not professional -- your story proves it. If he was knowledgeable, he would not have let you wander aimlessly trying to find the point to which you were cleared -- DIRECT -- straight line.

He gets no respect from me, and several other readers apparently, for risking your lives unneccessarily.

If coming in fast is usual for him, I wouldn't fly with him.

Yes, I implore you to not trust him. I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the regional pilot, but I can guarantee you they have criteria for stable approaches that would preclude what you did.




I'm not going to go around with you about this -- you have a history of ignoring criticism you receive on these forums. All I can do is say, you've been warned.








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Ignoring criticism? Not in the least I welcome it all so long as it's based on accurate details.

You make statements as if factual yet how could you know? You say I don't know what his abilities are... Dead wrong. You say he was risking our lives but he wasn't. I was there. Breaking out at 800agl with a sink rate and wheel's in the wells? Where did you hear this I didn't say that. I said we leveled out 1.5k high on the IAF about 10nm out. put in the flaps, dropped the grear. And with the engines at idle followed the approach down while bleeding off airspeed at all times. It's not ignoring criticism. I admitted I should have known how to use the functions of the GPS I was asking about. You are bending what happened. yes it was beyond my abilities. That's what practice is for. The actual approach was commenced and executed using normal maneuvers. It was initiated with a higher airspeed and higher altitude. however "pitch for airspeed power for altitude" we cut the power, increased sink rate to match forward speed. As the speed bled off we landed dead on. Everything that happened rapid was prior to the approach in VFR conditions. You keep talking about busting out at 800 agl but that's what the darn approch is for. It takes you down below 800AGL. If there's a tower there then someone really screwed the pooch on the approach plates.

what's not legal about having engines at idle? how did you manage to get a single rating without having come in hot for a few landings, or slow for a few, or pitching back to quickly on takeoff? Every student I have comes in way to fast sometimes and way to slow others. If they didn't they wouldn't need an instructor to teach em better. I have a hawker who all the sudden pops up on freq stating he's on a 4nm final and I'm about 1/2mile in a 172. I tell my student to keep the speed up and it won't be an issue. Anything wrong with instructing him to do so? That's a real world situation and if you don't train for it you might as well hang up the wings. I never said anything we did was normal. It was for me to experience.

Numbering added to clarify chronology. Number 3) is expanded in the following post:






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As a matter of fact, yes there is. You won't be so happy when that student keeps his speed up (because his instructor taught him to do so) and then overshoots the runway and the feds come looking for the CFI that taught him this pearl.

Some planes are slow. Some are fast. Pilots know this. Most pilots accept this. The ones who don't are aholes or aren't getting paid by the hour.

In your example, the Hawker knows he has to give you the right of way. You can be as nice as pie and fly your 172 300 kts to the landing if you want butno one will care and you will have to explain why you blew out your tires, or lost directional control, or whatever. Or maybe you get lucky and nothing happens but eventually it will.

Also, I imagine you consider yourself a professional pilot now, right? So the single-engine rating explanation doesn't really apply here.

You fly a profile and that profile centers around a stabilized approach. No matter the aircraft.

TD, screw the Hawker that's BEHIND you. I hope by "keep the speed up" you mean maintain normal approach speed and not fly a faster approach. If not, then you seem to have issues with stabilized approaches. Yes, you pose a real world situation. Flying a faster approach is not a real world solution. Flying a normal approach speed is a real world solution...actually, procedure. Sure, you hear 121 guys being instructed by ATC to maintain best forward speed or XXX kts to the marker. All that ends at the outer marker; inside the OM (or whatever the appch has) it's up to the pilots to fly Vref or be slowing to it. Depending on VMC or IMC the approach has to be stabilized by a certain altitude (usually 500' or 1000' respectively).

Let the Hawker worry about what to do. All you can do is state your position and intentions and allow the Hawker pilots to adjust. You are in a more critical phase of flight and they are more maneuverable. Sure, I could add that they should have called prior to 4NM, but I know that it happens.

Just make sure you don't get your students thinking that jets have priority (although, we'd like to have it) and that they need to rush a critical maneuver (landing) to satisfy others. Plus, your student is paying to fly that 172.:eek: Those Hawker boys are getting paid to fly and a go around isn't cash out of their pockets. :D

Regarding the confusing clearance, call the ATC facility you were talking to. Tell them the date, time, location, altitude you were at and maybe the controller will be available to discuss the clearance with you. If not, maybe he will be able to get back to you or another controller/supervisor may be able to help. Controllers are friendly and like to hear from pilots.

Amen, dhc. I just finished my msg and saw yours posted. Well put.