Weird clearance... I was confused. Could use some input.
 

I was flying from SRR to DRT flying IFR at 23k. Out of nowhere they ask me to climb to 24k. So I did. Then he comes on and says.. "Merlin XXXXK I have new instructions for you let me know when you're ready to copy.. "

"Ok I'm ready(kinda odd feeling)"

"Merlin XXXXK you are cleared direct to 60nm out on the 301 degree radial from DLF(Laughlin AFB). After reaching 60nm on the 301 radial you are then cleared direct to DLF then direct DRT"

So I figured my radial to the station would be 121. I was already on 126 and maintaining for the past 100 miles. So I was sitting 175miles out when I got this. My question to you guys is how would you have found 60nm out from the VOR at 301 radial? I can't even pick up the VOR at 175 miles yet they wanted me to start moving then. I had no way to use the VOR to select a radial. All I could think of was that I was so close to the radial already that I turned right about 10 degrees using the autopilot on HDG mode then used the GPS hitting "Direct>DLF>Enter" every minute or so to finally find out when my DTK to DLF was 121 degrees then I flew that till 60nm out. Was there an eaiser way? I wanted to ask the guy what was the point of making me go through all this for a 5 degree change in my overall direction. Then I ask for the GPS 13 approach and would like to let down if possible. He tells me to go direct for the GPS 13 approach but descend only to 15k then wait for further clearance.

I ended up having to go to flight idle on the engines and descend at 5k fpm at 240ish kts just to be 1.5k high on my IAF trying to lose altitude and lose 30kts so I could start poking things out there which for me was a very fine line. All this none the less in actual breaking out at 800agl to only see the runway screaming up on me. I just brought the nose up and leveled out high then once I hit 210kts I started dumping everything out there. I rounded out over the numbers and touched down in just the right spot having never used power for the last 20nm. I'm sure you guys have been through this before but I've never had anything like this happen and I fly in and out of here all the time.

Anyway back to the clearance.... How would you have followed it? Way far out from the VOR yet being told to hold a radial with a Garmin 530/430 stack. Is there some way to force the GPS to pick a radial for you to intercept off the VOR?

Did you file using DUATS?

They wanted you to go to a point in space that was on that radial and at that DME. If you went into the GPS and entered those numbers off of the specifiied vor, it would have made a point for you and you could have gone direct to that. They didnt want you to actually get on a radial. Just think of it like making up an intersection. If there was an intersection at that point, they probably would have cleared you to it since you are /G.

Why in the hell did you continue that approach? That kind of sloppy flying is going to get you killed someday. Honestly, I don't know if I believe the story after seeing some of your other posts on CaaM.

No. It was from Riodoso to Del Rio there are no airways or busy traffic or anything like that that we just file GPS Direct. Called it in.

I continued it because the guy I was flying with who's got about 25khrs and knows the plane far better than I do said it was perfectly capable of it and to continue. He was right. We landed right in the perfect spot however the engines were at idle the whole entire time. I always plan my descents using the 6 and 3 rule and am not as experienced IFR wise. Had it been just me I would have declared missed and gone to the VOR then do the approach from there. I do everything I can in advance to make sure I stay ahead of the aircraft and if I'm going to get behind it then I'd just go missed however this was on that bleeding edge for me. For the other guy it wasn't anything crazy. Like I said I'm sure these types of things aren't anything knew for some of the people here which is why I asked in the first place. I fly the merlin perfectly fine and have no issues in it but that doesn't mean I've 100% mastered it.

As far as flying to the point I understood that part. But the only way I'd know when I was 60nm out on the 301 radial was to put myself on the 301 radial then fly till 60nm out. How do I tell the 530/430 to select a specific radial then specify a specific distance on that radial when I'm to the west of it? I have the 530 program on my PC here but can't manage to figure it out. I've got the manual too and have been digging but no luck. Outside of this what you believe is irrelevant and an un-needed comment. Why is it so impossible to ask for help and simply get it around some of you?

Precisely...
Im the garmin you just go to the user waypoint page, enter a name for your waypoint. Select the fix you want to REF WPT field (DLF) enter your radial (301) in the RAD field and enter your desired distance (60nm) in the DIS field.

Then hit DIRECT TO and you are LNAVing where you need to go.

I am a little disturbed by your post though, if you had GPS on board why are you commenting about not being able to receive the VOR that far out? The VOR is a waypoint in the database, you do not need to recieve the radio signal to navigate with it.

If you were in 699RK you were filed /G, so that is why you were issued an "RNAV" type waypoint. If you are going to file /G, you should know how to use the RNAV function of your box.

Be careful out there man.

It is on page 147-148 in the manual FYI.

He clearly expected you to use RNAV (GPS) not traditional VOR nav. Presumeably your equipment code indicated to him that you had the ability to do that...sounds like you had the technology but didn't know how to use it. Next time I would ask for a vector... there are no provisions in enroute IFR for doing anything other than following a vector, following a radial/bearing/RNAV course, or going DIRECTLY to a fix. DO NOT just fumble your way around the sky Helen-Keller style, that could put you in a world of hurt.

First off, weird clearance. There are many things which might have made the control have you do this. Who knows, maybe he just wanted to give you a run for your money.

As far as the Garmin 430 is concerned. You can select to go Direct to the VOR...then push the OBS button and dial in your desired radial into the NAV indicator that your GPS is hooked up to. Now all you have to do is intercept the radial and track in to the 60DME fix. I cant think of a way to proceed direct to the 301@60 unless it was previously planned (ie. you have the lat/lon). This is all assuming that you have a NAV indicator hooked up to your GPS. As far as I know most GPS units have a NAV indicator which can be slaved to the GPS and an OBS function on the GPS. Another note...dont forget to take the GPS out of OBS slave mode when you are just proceeding direct otherwise it wont sequence your flight plan.....done that...no fun.

It's actually pretty easy, and not so unusual. First off, you must have filed that you were GPS or RNAV equipped, as there is no way to do this off of just straight VOR's. On the Garmin system, if my memory serves me correct, you need to go to the user waypoints page and create a new user defined waypoint. Then all you have to specify is the radial and distance (the unit should prompt you for this information) and the Garmin will create that waypoint in the database. Next, just push the direct to button and select your newly defined waypoint. That's it. You could also file for this on a clearance, it would read like this: DFL301/60. I believe the Garmin can also create user waypoints using crossing radials from different VOR's.

I commonly would get a direct-to radial/distance fix when flying to Crescent City, CA. One of the approach IAF's starts at a radial/distance fix, so quite easy and handy to navigate there with a GPS. Without one, you'd either need radar vectors (which never happened as their radar coverage is not good at low altitudes) or fly direct to the VOR, outbound until reaching the fix, then inbound again. Waste of time and gas.

Umm...this entire post troubles me on many many levels.....:eek:

See my previous post. All GPS units including handhelds that I HAVE USED (Garmin and King) allow you to specify the distance and radial. In the 530 it takes less than 60 seconds to create a waypoint at that DME fix and nav directly to it.

....Yup...

Intersting, learn something new everyday. (just read this after I added my post)

NO! Unless I misunderstood the original clearance, he WAS NOT cleared to intercept the 301 radial and track it to the D60 point...he was cleared DIRECTLY to the D60 point from his current position (which was not on the 301 radial). That means a straight line courtesy of RNAV. RJ85FO described how to program that into the Garmin.

The only reason TD got away wiith this was because he was on a nearby radial, so his approximation wasn't noticeable to ATC, or they just didn't care about the slight deviation.

There was a Merlin 3 (SW3) filed /G off of SRR going to DRT. Took off at 1458 Moutain time today and landed at 1710 Central time. They filed for FL230 and had an average speed of 286 knots.

N699RK owned by K Berger Inc out of Alto, NM.

Gotcha...didnt know you could program reference waypoints....as previously stated, learn something new everyday!! :)

The reason for the weird clearance is because of that little old AFB that was sitting off your nose on the descent. The Moa's surround Laughlin AFB and are stacked one on top of another. It's been a while but the 15K foot level off was to put you between the high and low areas. The other guys are right about building the point on the radial in the box. If you were in range and, a military guy, you would be doing a fix to fix direct (old school, use the box). Look at the approaches into Laughlin. The controller was probable getting you out of the way for the arrivals and not trying to make you work. The base is incredible busy with low time student pilots flying jets in close proximity to each other. If you fly in there often watch out. They have three runways, Moa's everywhere, aux fields and they are all busy all day long.

Why is that??? He had an honest question...he learned something...so did I, and im sure many other people who read this will understand it now and not make the same mistakes in the future. Everyone has got to start somewhere on the learning curve. Please dont discourage others from asking questions...that is how people make BIG mistakes.

[quote=N5XXER;115247]Why is that??? He had an honest question...he learned something...

Amen brotha. We have all done some not so bright things in the air, sweat up the seat a little and learned a lot. There are those that have and those that will. If you think your above learning something in this game we will all read about you someday:eek: keep the questions coming. Your airmenship is nothing more than the sum of all your F* Ups.

Watch out for the Texans, Tones, and T-38's in the XL pattern...

? ? ? ? ? ?

I didn't file that. He called it in. I'm guessing because there are no airways ect to navigate by to get to DRT? I've never had to use the RNAV function. I commented about not being able to receive the VOR that far out because as I stated I didn't know how to tell the GPS to select a desired point then find another point 60nm from the radial of it. I ended up doing it but not nearly as easy as it should have been done. I didn't think they could issue you points that weren't listed I guess. It was confusing. I've flown IFR to many places but for the most part they did what I considered standard proceedure. This was the first time I had been issued something like this which I considered weird.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND I was not alone and was with someone much more skilled than I. He wanted me to see what I'd do. So I explained to him that I was on the 126 radial already. So to fly to the 121 radial really would only require a small change. Kind of like if you were with a check examiner. We were never in danger. Just really exciting.... and confusing.

They don't stack MOA's. The north area I believe they go from 9k up for the T-38-s and south they go from 6k up for the T-6's I think.

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TD, did you have any luck finding it in the manual?? Do you have a 430 manual? It's on page 112 - 113 in mine.

So this 25K hour pilot you were with wasn't able to explain this simple GPS operation? Who "checked" you out on your first Garmin device? They should have been able to teach you this "direct to a random waypoint" procedure on your first day of GPS usage before the engine even started. It all goes back to lack of thorough instruction. Come on CFIs, don't let your students down...

Toilet Duck if you haven't found it yet here it is...
http://www.garmin.com/manuals/GNS430_PilotsGuide.pdf

it's on page 7-17

If that link didn't work you can download it from the garmin site here...
http://www.garmin.com/products/manua...t=010-00139-11

download the " Pilot's Guide, Rev. J, Jun, 2006"

TD,

I agree with N5, it's good that you ask questions (and maybe we can even answer one or two correctly).

But Dhc8Fo has a point too...this particular question goes beyond the usual internet forum debates. The situation that occured had the potential for SERIOUS trouble if the geometry had been different. There are several problems here:

1) You didn't know how to make your airplane do something it's capable of.
2) You filed a flight plan that indicated that you COULD use that capability.
3) When asked to do something that you didn't know how to do, you tried to wing it.
4) You did not even know that what you were doing was not in compliance with IFR rules.


This is one of those chain-of-events you've probably hear people talk about. Fortunately the end result was a technical foul that nobody noticed.

Another factor was the other pilot (I assume you were the FO?) He probably filed the flight plan, and you relied on his "superior" experience. Another lesson to be learned here.

Suggestions:

1) Review the 91 and the AIM on IFR ops, especially RNAV & GPS
2) Review the equipment codes that you use or might want to use. They changed recently due to RVSM and might be a little confusing.
3) Read your Garmin supplement.
4) Don't let your captain or boss or whatever put you in this kind of predeciment...eventually it will cost you. I only trust people that I have a lot of positive experience with. And even then I double check things if I have time.

Thanks for the tips. I've been tooling around with the program and this works great. I'm sure if you're going to file /G you should know everything there is about the unit indeed. How many people ever do? I trained with a 430/430 stack and have flown IFR out of here many times and I've never been given anything like that before. Never instructed by anyone about it before. I guess its one of those things you just have to "findout" about somewhere done the road earning that experience.

If you have an HSI and a DME indicator you can actually do this type of thing using just that believe it or not. No GPS required.

I get clearances like they every few days (in 121). It's pretty common and basic in the real world. I have to wonder about your captain though...he CERTAINLY should have known.

How? Does it involve math?

Amen...I'm glad I wasn't in that part of sky today...:rolleyes:

Sorta, but not hard. You do it on the HSI. Real simple stuff. No trig :D.

No I'm sure he could have. But we landed. Spent an hour cleaning out the aircraft. Then went in and talked about several other things. He told me to play around with the software some to figure it out then talk to him tomorrow about it. So I figured I asked here which considering some of the crowd I should have known better. God good should anyone make a mistake I mean the world might as well end! Or perhaps lack of curiosity or scaredness to actually ask deterred you. Anyway Rick things weren't out of control. Flew the plane just fine. Just something that was completely out of the ordinary for me. Exciting actually.

As far as filing /G. Yes he did it but yes I guess I should have known. Ignorance on my part as far as completely knowing all the aspects of my equipment. I had never been instructed nor ever received this kind of instruction before. Had I been flying it alone without the other guy giggling at me while I tried to figure it out I would have simply asked for a vector or even swallowed some pride and said "I don't know". But think of it more as a learning experience.

I'll have to look that up. Or can you explain it easily?

I can do it easily but had no DME because of distance unless it was on the GPS. The HSI couldn't pickup on VLOC which is the only way I know how to do it.

DME via the GPS or dme indicator in the cockpit is the same thing. How were you navigating? Was the HSI pointed toward the VOR station?