Sim Time for R-ATP. How to log it?
 

Hey all,

I'm using 141 Sim time to meet R-ATP mins. How do I log it in my logbook though? Do they want to see the 141 sim time under "total time"?

The 8710 time table does ask for Total Airplane and Total Sim. Does the APD want to see the addition of both under "Total Airplane"?

Thanks!

Sim is not total time. Just keep a separate column for sim.

Depends on the sim.....

I would log it separately, but I think level D sim time counts as airplane time.

No, no, no, no.


Certain types of sim time count towards certain FAA requirements INSTEAD of airplane time. That does NOT mean sim time "is" airplane time.

Do not ever claim sim time as airplane time or towards total-time requirements for employers. If employers want sim time, they'll ask for it as a separate category.

Keep sim time separate.

I am with you guys. But check out Republic's guidance on this.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...3f8ea9f654.png


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Yeah it is. If you need to log sim time for a R-ATP the FAA wants you to log Total time, ME, and Sim.

Thanks, Majerus! Any source on this? Appreciate the help


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This topic seems to pop up quite a bit in these parts, and that's fair -- it's not all that straighforward. We need to be clear with the terms: total time as a pilot, and total flight time. Both are defined by the CFRs. Generally, when people say total time, they mean total flight time (my logbook column says so, though that's not regulatory, of course). "Total time as a pilot" includes aircraft flight time ("total flight time"), as well as sim and FTD time (not ATD time, though; although that doesn't render ATD time worthless, as it's used for the instrument rating, for example). "Flight time" is time in an aircraft (PIC, instruction received, etc.). "Total time as a pilot" has relatively limited usefulness, BUT in this context it's applicable to certain requirements for the ATP, as OP asks about. Most people don't log "total time as a pilot;" it's far more common to log total flight time, and, as others have said, to separately log sim/FTD time (or ATD time in other contexts). The place where total time as a pilot would be used would be IACRA (formerly your 8710) for the ATP, which asks for your types of time, at which point you'd simply enter flight time and other types of time as appropriate, totaled up in each category, and broken out lower on the form (a common example would be 25 hours of multi airplane FLIGHT time per the reg -- remember this is one form of pilot time, and 25 additional hours of multi pilot time attained in an FTD as part of a 141 or 142 program, or sim time in your 121 training, etc.). Hope that helps, and feel free to follow up if it's still a bit fuzzy.

I agree; but to be clear for others on the board, "total time" for the ATP is "total time as a pilot," so in that ONE circumstance the certificate applicant would need to combine total flight time and the appropriate FTD/sim time to reach that total (and would also break them out elsewhere on the form, as directed by IACRA). Agreed that logging total time is almost always "flight" time, especially for job apps and such.

No, this is a common myth. Level D sims do have some advantages, such as counting for type rating training in place of the actual airplane. But that's a whole different animal, and it's still just sim time. In this context for the ATP, both FTD and sim time is treated the same, and is included in "total time as a pilot," a defined term in the regs, but not "flight time." A limited amount of sim/FTD time may be counted towards the total time as a pilot for the ATP and some sub-categories (I.e. Multi and instrument), but as others have said they should be logged separately and applied as appropriate for the situation/certificate/rating.

Hey OP, I realized I never answered you directly. Please read above as I think it may help. More to your question, though --

Total airplane is just that - sim/FTD goes separate. I can't recall the columns exactly, but it should add them for you. I do remember a tech glitch for some folks a while back where IACRA wouldn't accept because it wasn't adding the sim/FTD time in and thus was rejecting as insufficient time; I believe that was fixed so that now they're adding up automatically to meet the total pilot time or multi time or whatever category you need the sim/FTD to meet per the reg.

Just be sure you aren't using BATD/AATD time; the ATP requires FTD/simulator (the fancy stuff); this is a big difference from the instrument rating.

Congrats and good luck!!

This topic couldn't have popped up at a more perfect time. I have questions regarding this as well. Currently I have more than enough XC and total time (actual "flight" time in an airplane) for an R-ATP. The only two categories I'm short on are multi-engine and instrument time. Does anyone know if the time spent in the sims during CTP count towards those two marks, instrument and multi? After reading the above comments, it's wise to keep sim time separate from "flight time", so if CTP sim DOES count, I probably won't log it as total time, (no need to since I'm set on total time). These are the full motion sims at CTP by the way.

There may be nuances to what airline applications want, but sim time is never counted as flight time, nor total flight time. Sim time is only good for training towards a rating, currency, or landings (e.g., level D sim).

So again, it may be ok for job applications to utilize sim time, but never for total time as a pilot, or flight time,, or PIC time. A sim is on the ground.

Instrument time is time manipulating controls in instrument conditions or while training in the air for currency with a view limiting device. Again, airline applications may want different numbers, but the FAA says instrument time is while personally manipulating the controls in less than VMC.

Log the simulator time as simulator time and nothing else.

When you need to meet a requirement that allows the inclusion of simulator time, add the applicable simulator time to the applicable flight time to get a total for that specific purpose.

When I commute to work I log that time too. Kidding.


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Yes, FAA is different that way. I was talking about logbooks and airline employers...keep the sim time separate so as not to confuse potential employers (the point of confusion being whether or not you're honest...).

For the FAA, fill out their form however they want it. Much easier to explain to the FAA why your logbook total time does not include sim, than to explain to a major airline why it does.

Not exactly. IMC is a condition of flight (like night), so both required crewmembers (PIC and SIC) can log it, even with the auto-pilot on.

You need to be the PF to log holds and approaches for currency, but again you can use the auto-pilot.

I log my GA currency in an airliner, just to check the box. But before I fly GA I get a CFII and practice to proficiency in a piston ASEL or FTD before I do it for real. Currency =/= Proficiency.

But seriously I feel Im qualified for an honorary type in the 737, 757, and A320. God knows ive spent enough time in the jumpseat staring at the overhead panel.

Agree entirely.

That last part is absolutely incorrect. Total time as a pilot, by reg definition, absolutely includes simulator and FTD (but not ATD), as well as flight time. Flight time, by definition, does not include sim/FTD time, you're right on that part. That said, total time as a pilot has limited value (it's useful in part for the ATP, and I'm not sure of anything else). As discussed above, most of us log "total time" as "total FLIGHT time" and log sim/FTD separately.

Sorry for digging up an old thread.

Quick question, I know regional accept sim time for the ME or TT, so they can hire you at 1475TT and 25ME. But does that rule also apply to night time and night PIC?

Thanks

Don't think so

Ha, like you'd turn off the lights in the sim room?? I kid I kid. I know you can simulate darkness in most sims. But for logging purposes, you can't count it as night.

Also, more than 25 sim time can count towards the ATP for total time, so 1475 isn't the right min number. 25 is the limit for multi, yes. Up to 100 FFS or FTD can count towards the ATP "total time as a pilot." If, and only if, that time was obtained as a part of a 141 program, OR a 142 program (like the ATP-CTP) or your airline's 121 program.

Not too many folks have this time coming into an airline, as most schools use ATDs, not FTDs, and definitely not FFSs. But at the airline, you'll get 25 multi FFS, and 30+ total time FFS. Add another 12 for ATP-CTP. But not all airlines will let you come in short to get to the 1500; some want mins met before starting ground school, or before the ATP-CTP even.

You think very wrong. Sim time is sim time. It's never aircraft time.

^^^ This, right thar.

You can count the sim towards ME and TT as you said. But not N nor PIC. Your "PIC" time in a simulator should not even be logged in your logbook, though I realize you probably acted as PIC. But if it's not in a plane or a helicopter, it's not actually PIC.

FWIW when I did my R-ATP at FlightSafety a while back, I needed 23 sim hours to count toward my multi time requirement.

The training center had not seen a R-ATP before and needed some guidance from the FSDO.

The Feds told us to log it as Total Time, AMEL, and Sim. Because I was using that time to meet the time-in-class requirement, that time in class had to be logged accordingly.

Since then (recurrent) I've just not logged the sim time at all - I use the 8410 or my FSI completion certs to show my currency. Not sure if that's the right or wrong attitude, but meh.