1500 rule, zero 121 accidents so far
 

Has anyone actually investigated whether this is true? Correlation does not necessarily mean causation.

Spurious Correlations

A lot of other things have changed since Colgan, including certain training emphasis.

We are now seeing wholesale upgrades of the "fog-a-mirror" generation of pilots who were hired with essentially zero selectivity by the regionals. So the only backstop at all is the 1500 hours...we'll see how they do over the next few years.

It takes a while to reap what you sow with aviation safety, so you can't jump to early conclusions.

But I will venture that at least from a CA perspective if anybody can sit in the right seat, I'd rather they have 1500 hours than 200 hours. Or 400 hours, or 900 hours. Every little but helps at that level.

1500 hours of C172 time does not make you a good jet driver.

That is all.

You're saying a C172 is NOT a jet? Give this man a medal! Tooling around as PIC of even a C172 should give you critical airmanship skills that you wouldn't get slinging gear in a jet. You should improve energy management, ADM, and sharpen existing skills like stall recovery through the mistakes you'll undoubtedly make. All time is not created equal but 1000/1500 is a good start.

You might want to read the rule as published. 1500 hours of 172 time will not get you hired. It's certainly better then 200 hours of 172 time however!

I would rather have the 1500 hour pilot at least they may have a chance to scare themselves a little and gain a little humility, It also gives them some IFR experience and at the level is exponential. I used to fly with the Mesa Development 300 hour pilots and for the most part were fairly sharp. It is just is scary when your FO tells you that was the first instrument approach in actual conditions that they have ever flown was with passengers on board. MEI time is actually more worthwhile.

Ah yes. How could I forget the all important 25 hours of multi time.

In all seriousness I am for the 1500 hour rule. It has improved the quality of airline applicants but I've just seen way too many young kids come through the school house who just don't have the chops to fly jets. Most guys I know who stepped into the regional world 10 years ago did so on the Saab or Dash. I started my professional career flying turboprops and that provided great lead up experience to flying a jet.

It is not a perfect system but it is working. I wish there was a greater time requirement for multi engine to get your ATP but overall I am happy with what the 1500 hour rule has done to safety.

No, but it makes you a better jet driver than the guy with 250 hours in a C172!

The other problem with lowering the TT requirement is, if we make it a wet commercial again the old TT for a part 61 issued​ commercial was 250 hours, part 141 was 190 hours and part 142 was 140 hours, where is the incentive to KEEP or increase pilot wages?

Let's say you have a wealthy ambitious person come in and they can get from zero to hero at a place like ATP. They'll have all the funds to go from zero to hero in 3 months and qualify for the regionals​. I mean technically they'll qualify for the legacies etc, (but they'd be competing against guys with jet time, Captain time...) but the reason we have seen wages increase is to attract talent. If there was an abundance of pilots, or a quick path for someone to put down cash now (borrowed or not) then feel that they'll be at a legacy with a wage that can repay it, there would suddenly be a lot more people doing flight training. This isn't to say we should deter people from learning to fly but rather you want people who actually like airplanes ​flying. Everyone likes money but you don't want to attract people who just want money.

The ATP/R-ATP requirement was not a move made purely for safety. Do I think it's better to have a pilot with more valuable flight time of course, but if we drop back to wet commercial, you'll have guys in the right seat of a jet who flew circles in a 172 for 250 hours. You'll have guys that went through a structured​ program for under 200 hours. We'd all prefer the guys with structured​ training.

When I went through my first airline initial training there was a guy who failed out of 121 training claiming he'd never pinked a ride... but got all of his training from ATP, where from what I gather they pay off the DPE to pass everyone even if they haven't learned what is required in the PTS. He didn't know how to track a VOR. And this was in the days where we commercial was able to be hired, but guys in class had ATP mins as the average.

That is actually a pretty good point. Where once most regional new-hires had hundreds of hours of multi-engine experience, it is bare minimum for the vast majority of regional candidates nowadays. Obtaining the full fifty hours of multi-engine experience in the airline's training simulator has become the new norm. No initiative whatsoever to expand learning horizons by acquiring the MEI rating or by flying freight in a Cessna 402, turboprop, etc. Thankfully I was blessed by signing up for part 135 jet charter operator before coming to the regionals and felt more than comfortable.... Most are gaining initial insights into operating multi-engine aircraft these days at the regionals which is not a good thing in my very humble opinion.

As someone mentioned earlier; it's been spiking wages and effectively raising the minimum floor. Thank God. I hope it continues to drive them up.

Keep the 1500 hour rule but give guys a living wage. You ll attract talent that way. I want to know what the attrition rate is from people who gain their PPL and make it all the way to the ATP.

Maybe, but we should all support it for economic reasons as has been stated.

I disagree, you want the guy that likes money above all else, because they won't be willing to work for free, unlike the poor kid who is barely scratching by, desperate for the experience. Eventually, everyone becomes the guy that likes money and time at home above all else. I admit it, thats what I care about.
Zero to hero in three months? Closer to five months, and only then are they actually able to start to learn anything.
The 1500 hour rule gives them an opportunity to learn from their mistakes in the real world before going to an airline.

I disagree. You should support it or anything that improves safety. The fact that wages have increased is a nice bonus but continuing to lobby a Republican Congress based purely on artificially increasing economic conditions is the fastest way to have those regulations rolled back. It's why Union participation in the last 30 years has plummeted​.

I have been told by those in recruiting and HR that less than half of the people that apply to PSA are called for an interview. Of those that interview, about 30% are not offered the job. And then once training starts, we have a low but healthy number of pilots that do not pass training.

There are many airlines that have the same percentages. I would not consider any of these a "fog the mirror" airlines.

The ones that have no real interview, hire anyone that applies, and then has a 95%+ pass rate are the regionals that scare me.

I think that the 1500 hour rule has helped, but the other parts of that plan have helped even more. The better sharing of pria and training records is a huge part of this.

I know a bunch of guys/gals who have failed a checkride through ATP, including myself. Was there a little bit of training to just pass the checkride? It depends if your instructor was just sitting there to build hours or actually cared about teaching. People do slip through the cracks, but for the most part when they get to the 121 world they are weeded out pretty efficiently. But to say DPE's that work for ATP are paid off from information you "gathered" is a pretty strong statement with not much to back it up with.

How pray tell is perpetuating a flawed environment that favors slaving away for $20000 per year conducive to safety? Colgan 3407 happened due to factors which fostered sleep and stress-induced fatigue. The captain and first officer couldn't even afford a $40/night hotel.... If you reduce the hours required to sign up for a regional, you can bet that all the bonuses and improvements in pay will go away again if pilot supply again overruns the number of available positions at the regionals. The increased experience requirement is having the effect that its creators intended: it is causing wages to rise as the available pool of applicants dwindles because of the time and energy needed in reaching it.

Reminds me of one of my favorite Simpson's moments

1500 rule, zero 121 accidents so far
 

+1... Truth! Preach!

1500 PIC in 172 does not make one a good FO jet driver.... dumb law. Period. 4yr degree 2 yr degree exemptions/RATP (for certain school programs, uselessness, #ProfessionalPilotDegree 🤣), the reduction in time for these programs lobbied by Riddle & UND was also a dumb inclusion into the rule. Period.

But we'll take it. Increases pilot shortage, increases demand, increases PAY.


The Mgmt @ the majors & regionals did this to themselves. They should have seen this coming. They pushed the van / kicked the can down the road.


It's the # 1 strategy in resolving pilot related issues, from Fatigue to contract related improvements demanded by the pilots groups, simple QOL & pay improvements. Kicked down the road.

Stay alert to how they kick things down the road as long as possible. It's strategic and effective to their bottom line (this fiscal yr & forward guidance EPS estimates).

It's a good sign that ALPA and the FAA are championing the act, though. It means that there is official resistance against the RAA's lobbyists. The faster the regionals die, the quicker the flying returns to mainline, which is good for us all, and not just for the pilots.

No requirement exists for 1,500 hours of time in a Cessna 172. The applicant must meet the requirements for an airline tranpsort pilot certificate.

Everyone must start somewhere. As it turns out, currently the starting point is ATP minimums. Go figure...for an airline job.

You should spend time in something a little faster and more complex. Even a Barron can crowd a pattern full of jets if you leave the power on.

I'm not the most experienced and but am by far the least. My opinion formed after being around aviation my whole life and flying for a living the past 21 years is that there is no rhyme or reason to it.

I've seen great pilots with 250 hours and bad pilots with 250 hours. I've seen great pilots with 20000 hours and bad pilots with 20000 hours. That goes for training background also. Great guys from civ and crappy also. Great guys from mil and crappy too. And every combination of hours and training in between.

It just depends on the person and their attitude.

I site my time a a J4J capt at republic in the 06-08 years. They were hiring plenty of 400 hours guys. Some were great, some average and some I wouldn't let solo a washing machine.

In in the past months I've flown with a new hire (off the street) that has 121 experience but substantially less experience than your typical flow or mil new hire. This person absolutely blew me away with professionalism, flying skills, aircraft knowledge, and decision making. Made my job easy.

Like I said. No rhyme or reason to it.

They DID see it coming!!!

Congress intentionally built in a 3 year lag between the date that the law passed and the date that it became effective! The airlines, (both regionals and the majors who depend/benefit from their feed) had 3 years to come up with a plan to deal with the 1500 hour rule yet the chose to do absolutely nothing about it,..... until it was too late. And I, for one, am thrilled about it.

Yes, there are lots of professional and natural sticks out there. I'm sure there are many people who would be competent as a private pilot after 20 hours. Others, it takes 60. The FAA has determined that, on the average, a pilot needs to meet certain experience requirements to hold certain ratings. That includes the airline transport pilot one. For every all-star guy, there are a dozen folks to average him out. The rules are to protect ourselves from average.

Yeah I agree with you. I'm all for the 1500 hour rule (didn't mean to imply anything else). Just thought I give my input. Best solution to a tuff problem, I'm not smart enough to come up with something better.

Couldn't agree more. In other countries there's no 1500 hour rule, it's not necessarily about your total hours but the training you went through and strict SOP's. Coming from Colombia where you can get hired with 200 hours total to fly a jet such as a E190, A320, etc I've been able to see that. Difference here is training is longer, SOP's are more strict (FDM / FDA / FOQA implemented). You could have thousands of hours in a school airplane, but that won't necessarily make you a good pilot when you start flying a jet, it's a complete different world.

But you still have be able to think outside the box to get the job done some days. And by out of the box I mean out of the box but within far/company procedures and policies. And that only comes with flight time in my opinion.

Agree as well. However I'd rather be in an airplane with a pilot that went through good training and has a lot of experience in that particular airplane or at least flying that kind of airplanes. Sometimes it shocks me how they talk about the 1500 hour rule like it fixed everything but still allow companies to upgrade first officers within a year of flying a particular airplane (with no jet experience before). I do respect CFI's and their path to the airlines, but I just disagree with how people don't have any airline or jet experience and still are looking for the regional that will give them the fastest upgrade. I think they could put a 5000 hour rule or you name it but if you upgrade a first officer with only a thousand hours of a jet and basically flying for an airline, that's more dangerous than a new first officer flying a jet with only 200 hours... this guy will learn from experienced captains and will take him many years and hours in order to take the left seat. Just my opinion on the 1500 hour rule but whatever works... and like it was said before, it works for us pilots (better benefits, increasing salaries, job opportunities, etc)

You don't have to build your hours in a 172...seems like lots of 135 ops are hiring FO at 500h or so. That's what most people did "back in the day", either sit side way or tprop for a few years...

I have met people who gain their 1500h through CFI, they don't even know what AC/DC is or what "psi" stood for.....then it doesn't matter if they have 1500h or 15000h, these are ones that should be weed out and only lord knows what they are teaching!

People who got to their ATP mins through part 135 operations will tell you their way makes you better 121 pilots then 1500 hour 172 drivers. Those who did the CFI route will tell you their way is better and makes you better aviators than those who just flew freight in straight lines and level altitudes from point A to point B daily.

Not sure which is better, but the part 121 training departments will tell you that on the whole those who come the CFI route, especially CFII, make better trainees and have a lower wash out rate than those who went other routes.

On the way to achieving my ATP, I did 135, instructed, towed banners, flew skydivers, did search and rescue, crop dusted, did aerial photography and movie location scouting, game count, gave scenic rides, towed gliders, and a few other things. I hauled gasoline, did freight and cargo and medevac. Somewhere in there I turned wrenches and pumped fuel, taught groundschools, put airplanes in parades and did mall displays.

There's no such thing as "their way." Just jobs and experience. The greater and the broader the experience (education), the better for the individual.

Get all the experience you can. It will help you grasp and understand, expand, adapt, learn, and perform. It may or may not enhance the resume, but an hour of experience and an hour of flight time are NOT the same.

I'm hoping to get on with a 135 operator in Alaska, caravan/1900 SIC first then 207 PIC. I've heard that Alaska time would be more valuable to an employer than vanilla 135 or dual given any day. Do you think there's truth to that? Thanks!

That depends on the employer. To Alaska operators, yes ts valuable. To some other operators, it makes no difference, and to some, it may be a liability.

I think people give 0 FKS about alaska time other than maybe somewhere down the line when you have turbine PIC time and are applying at a major/corporate whatever it may make a good story too somehow set you apart. These are people btw who are not Alaska or bush based Im just speaking about lower 48 state carriers, outfits etc. my 2 cents.

Not a pilot, don't pretend to know your job, okay?

When I buckle in my window seat behind the wings on the left side, where I normally like to sit, I hope for 2 things:

First, that whoever is in the pointy end enjoys the job and takes it seriously.

Next, that whatever company, whatever logo, respects both the professionals carrying me along, and the professionals tending to me in the cabin.

Experience can be a variable factor. If someone's enthusiastic about their avocation or vocation (the line gets blurry when it comes to pilots), then they learn and improve their skill sets.

If not, then it's just washing yet another f*cking car at the buggy wash.

Kudos to you folks who haven't crashed me. I realize I could get into my car and do that for myself.

But I think the bigger issue is two fold: Quality of training, and quality of experience.

If you come in on the right seat, but never are exposed to takeoff and landing, does that experience count?

If you fly long haul, and most of your experience is at cruise with Otto flying, do those hours really count?

Hours, maybe, but not realistically.

My dream PIC would be someone who has done a hundred landings and takeoffs from some place Toncontin. I'd pick a PM from someone who was right seat on the first 747 flights. Those were a mess.

But as a passenger I realize that that's not possible.

So, here's the thing. Make the best of your experience and training, and develop yourself.

Most of you do, I know. Professional pilots vie in my mind with good surgeons and nurses for "first in saving lives," because all of you deal with things which would send the average man running, screaming into the night.

In Europe, under EASA rules the have 250 hour guys in the RH seat of airliners. Their safety record has been good except for the German airline job. They do have 14 written exams for their ATP and I believe they require about 750 hours of study time and a passing grade is a 75.

Sounds comforting ...

On the other hand, I heard it takes a decade or more to make Captain at Lufthansa, KLM and Air France.