Originally Posted by ENH017 (Post 3563180)

Originally Posted by I was inverted (Post 3563194)

Is keeping the #2 engine running while waiting for ground power normal?

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3563199)

If the APU is inop, you need to keep one of them running until ground power is hooked up. Which one depends on the aircraft.

That's why the beacon stays on, and you advise ops that you don't have an APU.

Originally Posted by I was inverted (Post 3563211)

Well, yeah. But if you read the thing I quoted it said “before the shutdown of engines” not “engine” and the dude got sucked into the #2. Never flown the 175, but on the 190 with the APU inop, the norm is to shut down #2 (the side where the baggage doors are) and keep #1 on until power is established. The #1 is the same side as the GPU receptacle and opposite side of the baggage door, and there isn’t much reason to keep #2 up, at least on the 190. Was hoping an envoy 175 guy would chime in for clarification on the quoted text for their specifics because as a former 190 guy #2 probably wouldn’t have been running from my experience. Not throwing stones, more just curious about that quoted text and norms on the plane outside of what I know.

Originally Posted by I was inverted (Post 3563194)

Is keeping the #2 engine running while waiting for ground power normal?

Originally Posted by ENH017 (Post 3563232)

The book only mentions the procedure for starting at the gate with APU inop. It does not mention how the shutdown procedure would go in that specific situation.

There's only 2 points that I could find that are relevant:

1. Single engine taxi with APU inop is prohibited
2. 2 minute cool down is required before engine shutdown

I would not call pulling into the gate with both engines running while waiting for GPU and/or cool down "normal", due to common sense hopefully, but the book does not specifically forbid us from doing so.

Originally Posted by PhilMcCrackin (Post 3563241)

Short taxi? Also, aren’t ground crew trained not to approach the aircraft with the beacon on when pulling into the gate? I think you’re reaching for ideas to blame the flight crew.

Originally Posted by FlyyGuyy (Post 3563226)

Perhaps still waiting for cool down? I agree though, even on the bus we shut 2 down first typically.

About a month ago we pulled in, and before the captain could shut it down, the rampers were already opening the doors. .... At DFW. Both cargo doors open with number 2 still going.

Originally Posted by ENH017 (Post 3563232)

The book only mentions the procedure for starting at the gate with APU inop. It does not mention how the shutdown procedure would go in that specific situation.

There's only 2 points that I could find that are relevant:

1. Single engine taxi with APU inop is prohibited
2. 2 minute cool down is required before engine shutdown

I would not call pulling into the gate with both engines running while waiting for GPU and/or cool down "normal", due to common sense hopefully, but the book does not specifically forbid us from doing so.

Originally Posted by PhilMcCrackin (Post 3563241)

Short taxi? Also, aren’t ground crew trained not to approach the aircraft with the beacon on when pulling into the gate? I think you’re reaching for ideas to blame the flight crew.

Originally Posted by AerChungus (Post 3563260)

I'm former ramp for the other WO AA carrier. That might be on some LMS slide in training, but in practice as soon as the plane comes to a complete stop everybody tries to chock the tires and start unloading. We would have had no real way of knowing whether the APU was deferred or not. In my experience, it's usually not particularly hard to notice if an engine is still running but when I started I made the mistake of walking around the back of a 175 when an engine was idling (whether the APU was deferred or not, I'll never know) and got blown across the ramp

Originally Posted by mketch11 (Post 3563347)

Flashing red beacon would be on any time an engine is running. That’s how you would know not to approach.

Originally Posted by AerChungus (Post 3563260)

I'm former ramp for the other WO AA carrier. That might be on some LMS slide in training, but in practice as soon as the plane comes to a complete stop everybody tries to chock the tires and start unloading. We would have had no real way of knowing whether the APU was deferred or not. In my experience, it's usually not particularly hard to notice if an engine is still running but when I started I made the mistake of walking around the back of a 175 when an engine was idling (whether the APU was deferred or not, I'll never know) and got blown across the ramp

Originally Posted by AerChungus (Post 3563349)

The standing practice in a lot of places is you listen for the sound of the engine being cut

Originally Posted by AerChungus (Post 3563349)

Right, as a pilot, that may be intuitive. As a ramper with 5 days of training you don't/barely know what a beacon light is, much less what it represents. The standing practice in a lot of places is you listen for the sound of the engine being cut

Originally Posted by Fletcheroes (Post 3563402)

Having spent 10 years working for a ground handling contractor after decades of other aviation "exposure" of various types, and two careers in safety focused fields I can attest that:Ground handling pay sucks.Due to the pay leadership also is sub par (including trainers) I've seen people promoted to trainer after a couple months on the job because nobody else would take it for a dollar raise...Mgmt regularly hides or looks away from reported safety issues when reportedeven when it's all on airport video. I've reported arrival walk around done with the agent texting the entire walk around never looking at the aircraft and also walking behind running engines......not a word was said public ally or privately.You can't expect new agents to learn when their trainer doesn't know squat outside of read this book.This culture fostered the I won't get fired for anything, as I p we pokepoke my d ok wh as über my to he to want.When you have my management openly fabricating Re CC orda required to be re to add in Ed by the Contract, that hadn't been Completed for months.... You've got a culture problem.When aircraft are dispatched after de/anti ice with contamination and nobody loses Thier Jobs....you've got a culture issueWhen the manager tells a supervisor to falsify deice op files.......culture issueWhen management thinks is wise to have an entire supervisor cadre under the age of 24 with no college /military/or leadership experience (that's a whole separate colorful story)this agent is ultimately at fault paying the ultimate price for one or more of the following. lack of knowledge, not being situationally aware, blindly doing what he/she was told to do, followi g local practice rather than company procedures, being rushed (by leadership or last operation of the shift: new years eve and next flight was 5 hours I believe) The ramp is inherently unsafe as many industrial jobs are....but with professionalism, train in g, exp er riemce etc....they can be fatality free It will be interesting to see where other root causes are. Does anyone know if if AA has to a requirement for ramp markings such as aircraft envelope/safety zone, ingestion zone, etc. Google Maps seems to show no safety markings only lead in lines. Tragic loss and very avoidable

Originally Posted by Fletcheroes (Post 3563391)

photos online show the incident was #1 engine

Originally Posted by drywhitetoast (Post 3563408)

spellchecker?

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3563409)

That's what ASN says.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/305466

Originally Posted by pangolin (Post 3563418)

Well now. Number 1 makes it a different story. Still just as tragic.

Originally Posted by CrandallCrawler (Post 3563411)

At Southwest the captain gives an engine cut hand signal to the marshaller who then relays that signal to the gate crew before anyone walks into the safety zone, screw relying on looking at a beacon light. Sounds like that needs to be implemented at AA, on top of shutting down the #2 when you have an inop APU. its beyond me how you somehow don’t notice an engine running though and try to open the cargo hold door

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3563427)

It was #1, I don't think the 175 has a cargo door on the left side.

Personally I like the beacon... still controlled by the CA, cannot be misunderstood and everyone on the ramp can see it if they care to look. But no reason not to also have a hand signal to the marshaller, who then signals the rest of them. Beacon is a backup in case of misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by saltbae (Post 3563432)

The marsheller walks away half the time before giving the chocks in signal. Most of These guys are so clueless - have had an engine running due to no APU and the fueler is hooked up refueling as soon as we pull into the gate and everyone starts unloading bags before the gate even pulls up. And if you’re waiting for a gate agent, they don’t care, they’re robots and don’t have any situational awareness for the most part.

Originally Posted by CrandallCrawler (Post 3563411)

its beyond me how you somehow don’t notice an engine running though and try to open the cargo hold door

Originally Posted by Chato (Post 3563440)

Tunnel vision. Being under pressure to get things done fast could cause to miss certain items. imo

Originally Posted by Fletcheroes (Post 3563445)

It's more a IDGAF.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3563427)

It was #1, I don't think the 175 has a cargo door on the left side.

Personally I like the beacon... still controlled by the CA, cannot be misunderstood and everyone on the ramp can see it if they care to look. But no reason not to also have a hand signal to the marshaller, who then signals the rest of them. Beacon is a backup in case of misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by pangolin (Post 3563467)

Serious question. What’s the hand signal for engine running?

Originally Posted by ENH017 (Post 3563232)

There's only 2 points that I could find that are relevant:[list=1][*]Single engine taxi with APU inop is prohibited[*].