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-   -   CRJ accident at Toronto (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/149552-crj-accident-toronto.html)

joepilot50 03-20-2025 07:57 AM

Prelim is out.

Short and sweet of it is approach speed was set appropriately at 149 knots per EDV guidance, power was at 64%, 175' airspeed got a bit slow at 144 knots, power remained the same, 150' airspeed spiked to 154 knots, PF brought power back to idle and remained there until touchdown. They lost the gust and the airspeed began to bleed off from there. Sink rate GPWS went off and airspeed decreased to 134 knots at touchdown where the right gear felt 3G's of force at 1098 FPM.

Sounds like a screw up all around. If going to idle is what it takes to arrest an increase in airspeed especially at 150', they should have went around. Or at the very least, only reduce power, but never go to idle and anticipate bringing it back in once the gust is lost. But go around would be the preferable and desirable course of action obviously vs trying to save it.

150' was plenty of time for the captain to intervene and either say something or take control. Both were at fault in this accident just going off the prelim.

DeltaboundRedux 03-20-2025 08:15 AM

Here's the link: Preliminary Weather, recency, flight time hours, flight data, evacuation sequence/efforts, etc. Good read.

Probably going to have to wait a day or so. The website is getting flooded and rejecting queries like a DDOS.

Here's the PDF (good photos)

Here's an interesting video produced by the safety team: Good video summary

RippinClapBombs 03-20-2025 08:31 AM

Pulling the TL’s idle at 140ft — touching down at 1,100 FPM decent rate with 8 degrees of bank. Yeah.. that’s about as bad as it gets.

rickair7777 03-20-2025 08:54 AM


Originally Posted by joepilot50 (Post 3895261)
Prelim is out.

Short and sweet of it is approach speed was set appropriately at 149 knots per EDV guidance, power was at 64%, 175' airspeed got a bit slow at 144 knots, power remained the same, 150' airspeed spiked to 154 knots, PF brought power back to idle and remained there until touchdown. They lost the gust and the airspeed began to bleed off from there. Sink rate GPWS went off and airspeed decreased to 134 knots at touchdown where the right gear felt 3G's of force at 1098 FPM.

Sounds like a screw up all around. If going to idle is what it takes to arrest an increase in airspeed especially at 150', they should have went around. Or at the very least, only reduce power, but never go to idle and anticipate bringing it back in once the gust is lost. But go around would be the preferable and desirable course of action obviously vs trying to save it.

150' was plenty of time for the captain to intervene and either say something or take control. Both were at fault in this accident just going off the prelim.

You would normally idle that thing at 10'.

15 knots slow => big loss of lift, all else equal.

Ooops.

The part of the gear sidestay that's shown edge-on in the video looks like clean brittle overload failure. Brittle due to sudden impact, overload for obvious reasons. It doesn't show a direct view of the edge of the web between the padeyes, might be some sort of corrosion or fatigue induced failure there, which could have precipitated the overload failure of the main beam.

DeltaboundRedux 03-20-2025 09:27 AM

"The MLG shock struts on this aircraft are designed to absorb the energy of a 720 fpm (12 fps) descent velocity at the maximum landing weight." - from the prelim.

Meme In Command 03-20-2025 09:51 AM


Originally Posted by Meme In Command (Post 3884004)
I suspect one possibility is a very common mistake in the CRJ:

pilot on final into a runway with gusty winds

Speed trend vector shoots and pilot corrects by pulling thrust back, possibly to idle.

gust dissipates and trend vector reverses. Now airspeed starts dropping fast.

pilot adds thrust but with the engines unspooled the thrust doesn’t respond quickly enough and the jet loses energy, exacerbating sink rate.

Well, I was half right.

80knotsV1rotate 03-20-2025 10:09 AM


Originally Posted by Meme In Command (Post 3895314)
Well, I was half right.

FO was flying a CRJ like a 172, and CA was just sitting back and watching it like a movie.

Not to mention the CA was on the DL seniority list for a few months. What does that say???

rickair7777 03-20-2025 10:16 AM


Originally Posted by DeltaboundRedux (Post 3895298)
"The MLG shock struts on this aircraft are designed to absorb the energy of a 720 fpm (12 fps) descent velocity at the maximum landing weight." - from the prelim.

That might mean the shocks will bottom out at at 720 fpm, anything less than that and you still get some springy action. Bearing in mind the tires absorb some too.

I'm not sure that means the gear and wingbox structural design limit is 720 fpm. That would imply a design failure point at 1080 fpm.

They landed at 1100fpm so maybe, but they were also banked with one gear obviously impacting first and maybe sideways too... I'm sure the design limit is based on both mains together.

Meme In Command 03-20-2025 10:19 AM


Originally Posted by 80knotsV1rotate (Post 3895322)
FO was flying a CRJ like a 172, and CA was just sitting back and watching it like a movie.

Not to mention the CA was on the DL seniority list for a few months. What does that say???

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the captain thing was debunked. Apparently when you flow and they hold you back a few months you get a seniority number for a few months while he was still at Endeavor. I believe he was offered the flow and then didn't actually follow through in the end so he was "on the list" for 3 months but never physically on property. So he didn't fail out of training, he chose to stay.

That's how I understood the story from the Ex endeavor guys I've flown with recently

ImSoSuss 03-20-2025 10:24 AM


Originally Posted by Meme In Command (Post 3895330)
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the captain thing was debunked. Apparently when you flow and they hold you back a few months you get a seniority number for a few months while he was still at Endeavor. I believe he was offered the flow and then didn't actually follow through in the end so he was "on the list" for 3 months but never physically on property. So he didn't fail out of training, he chose to stay.

That's how I understood the story from the Ex endeavor guys I've flown with recently

They didn't specify and the statement was very cagy. Nobody knows exactly what happened, it could well have been go back to EDV in lieu of failure.


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