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Grumble 02-14-2011 05:56 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 947658)
Although I agree with your overall stance, you are displaying a slight bit of ignorance when it comes to segments of this industry. Although the gist of it is about "regional" pilots, educate yourself on the CAL, UAL (when they were hiring), and former NW payscales. Particularly first year. Because guess what? The word "chumps" that you associate with the "regional" pilots ALSO correlates to the "legacies" as well. Especially in the case of the above mentioned airlines, where the first year pay, and subsequent years, especially on the narrow body flat out sucked. Wasn't, and probably won't be uncommon again for a first year legacy FO to have to live the lifestyle that many "regional" pilots do. And your correct, NOBODY put a gun to the guy's head to make him take that legacy job with substandard pay for his first few years and the substandard working conditions of being on reserve under crappy/concessionary CBA's. All while chasing the elusive "pay off".

I look forward to your retort. But ONLY if you can back up that it's STRICTLY a problem for "regional" pilots, as well as have your own personal experience/observations in the civilian airline pilot industry to back your argument.

Worked in the commercial field prior to joining the military. Father was a NWA>DAL guy, two time furlough veteran. First year pay at a legacy is a short burden to bear, and with proper planning is manageable once off probation and second year pay starts, thus it's an accepted risk. Granted most guys applying or going to a major are financially in a position to prepare, as it's most likely not their first major flying gig. All the guys I know that have made the move to the majors did it with some thoughtful planning before hand to endure that first year. Regional pay scales, totally different story. Back in the day I was looking at 3rd and 4th year pay still under $30K/year. I knew it was unsustainable, plus I wanted to serve. The only thing that's really changed was the depression of legacy pay, however it very livable after the first year or two and hopefully will be restored at some point in the future. Regionals just don't/can't generate the cash per flight to justify the pay required to live the way you need to in order to avoid commuting/rest rule violations unless you want to share an apartment in domicile with 3-5 other FO's. Great if you're 22 and just out of college, not an option for anyone with a family. 3807 is a perfect example. FO was living with her parents on food stamp wages. She's only one...

dojetdriver 02-14-2011 06:13 PM


Originally Posted by Grumble (Post 947682)
Worked in the commercial field prior to joining the military. Father was a Hughes Airwest>Republic>NWA>DAL guy. First year pay at a legacy is a short burden to bear, and with proper planning is manageable once off probation and second year pay starts, thus it's an accepted risk.

Post 9/11, and even in the pre economic collapse, that "short burden to bear" got extended for many. There was a time when going to a regional was an accepted risk, as you wouldn't be there long. That's not the case.


Originally Posted by Grumble (Post 947682)
All the guys I know that have made the move to the majors did it with some thoughtful planning before hand to endure that first year.

Agree, many "regional" pilots do the same. But I'm sorry, doesn't matter if it was pre 9/11 or the most recent hiring wave, there were legacy pilots as well as "regional" pilots living the EXACT SAME lifestyle. Like I said, you can't pigeon hole just one segment for accepting crappy wages. The problem is bigger, much bigger than that.


Originally Posted by Grumble (Post 947682)
Regional pay scales, totally different story. Back in the day I was looking at 3rd and 4th year pay still under $30K/year.

Not sure how far back you mean when you say "back in the day". Both "regionals" I've worked at, my income was far more than that at year 2. And I'm all about time off. I can't remember the last time I picked up ANY open time as an FO.


Originally Posted by Grumble (Post 947682)
I knew it was unsustainable, plus I wanted to serve.

And I respect that. But this wasn't a mil vs. civ discussion. NOBODY holds a gun to anybody's head to decide their career path for them.


Originally Posted by Grumble (Post 947682)
The only thing that's really changed was the depression of legacy pay, however it very livable after the first year or two and hopefully will be restored at some point in the future.

Everything is relative. Look at some of the legacy rates. Even with proper financial planning, it takes a while to get to what some consider livable. Especially when families and mortgages get tossed in.


Originally Posted by Grumble (Post 947682)
Regionals just don't/can't generate the cash per flight to justify the pay required to live the way you need to in order to avoid commuting/rest rule violations.

Incorrect, the "free market", outsourcing, and scope giveaways have constructed the business models that the "regionals" operate on. You can't blame the "regional", nor the "regional" pilots.


Originally Posted by Grumble (Post 947682)
3807 is a perfect example. FO was living with her parents on food stamp wages. She's only one...

As we all know, there is so much more to that story. The ONLY reason that the legacies haven't had a similar accident happen is because of luck, PERIOD. Don't think I need to go on a list of legacy incidents where the pilots and passengers are alive simply because of luck, NOT because they're paid so much so better rested compared to the "regional" pilots. Although it's funny to try to watch people try to justify it.


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