Airline Pilot Central Forums - Possible Pilot Deviation

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)

- Safety (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/)

- - Possible Pilot Deviation (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/78070-possible-pilot-deviation.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATCBob (Post 1559198)

I'd just like to add: in my almost 25 years in the FAA (ATC), the only reason you'd be reported for a deviation is if separation is lost, or gross incompetence (which I've never seen).

If separation is lost, the computer detects it and everything's documented and blame has to be assigned to someone. The FAA certainly doesn't want it and will try to pass it off as a pilot deviation if at all possible (and FSDO will bounce it back and claim it's an ATC error so it's not always clearcut -- FSDO and ATC are competing branches).

But if separation is NOT lost, nobody wants tapes to be pulled. The controller doesn't want anyone scrutinizing everything he did over the past 30 minutes, the supervisor on duty doesn't, and the facility doesn't. If you're told "not a problem," that's the end of it. We don't do random audits of day-to-day operations, just occasional audio checks to monitor phraseology and professionalism.

Even if you're told to call in, that goes to the supervisor in charge and he will probably mention if separation was lost or not (or you can ask). If he says separation wasn't lost, he's just going through the motions and nothing will ever come of it. Just be contrite and polite.

Um, are you still an active controller? The reason I ask is that even before I joined the FAA, I was cautioned by some controllers in a presentation when the "rules changed", requiring them to report all pilot deviations and "violations" as simple as part of the aircraft drooping over the hold short line. According to them at the time, this was to make us in line with ICAO. This was a few years back now, but in my time in the FAA I can say with certainty that pilot deviations ARE reported to Flight Standards and the pilot may not get a call from ATC about it, for several reasons, but we still get the information. In addition, ATC has all kinds of criteria that require them to fill out MORs. If someone gets a flat tire, we hear about it. If there is a pilot deviation, we hear about it. There are some things that may not trigger the alarms, some built in "buffers" so to speak, but otherwise the above is not the way things work now, where I'm at. Also where I used to be a few years ago.

The FSDO doesn't "bounce things back", in cases where we can't prove a pilot deviation, we file a report that says just that. If there are ATC issues, we have to let the ATC QC guy know, but they police their own and have their own investigations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes (Post 1559231)

I'm enroute. We didn't get that at my facility, but it might be a regional thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATCBob (Post 1559292)

I'm enroute. We didn't get that at my facility, but it might be a regional thing.

Well yes, we don't get a lot from center, but approach we get more, and then most from towers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes (Post 1559305)

Well yes, we don't get a lot from center, but approach we get more, and then most from towers.

Thanks.

Just curious, APC MODS: how many posts are needed to get full forum access? The signup page says five but I still only see a subset. I can prove I'm not a spambot if you want -- ask me anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATCBob (Post 1559334)

I thought it was ten, but could be wrong.

How sophisticated is the TARP system? I know it produces auto reports, but I was wondering what it produced auto reports of. What criteria causes it to submit and do they have these system wide or only certain locations? And which facilities have them?