Space Ship Two Crashes
 

As above, multiple sources putting it out. Appears one chute was seen after an in flight explosion.

"Back to the drawing board Ollie" Bad week for aviation...

Virgin Galactic Down
 

I don't quite know where to put this...

Virgin Galactic's SpaceShipTwo Has Crashed, Possible Casualties

Anyone know what kind of escape system (if any) they've got on that thing?

I'm not a Sir Dick fan by any means, but this kind of endeavor always entails a large dose of risk. After all, consider the issues the Apollo program had from the Apollo 1 pad fire to the Apollo 13 debacle.

Condolences to the families of the fallen.

Bad week for rocketry. :(

Preliminary reports are pointing to another Challenger/Columbia scenario where all of the engineers "know" what happened as soon as it happened, because it had nearly happened before, tried to warn management (a few of the engineers wrote to FAA??), but they went ahead anyway. Anybody here know anybody on the VG team and can provide some insight?

Yes. I know one of the other VG pilots fairly well.

So sorry to say that, right now, they are just a bit busy consoling Mike Alsbury's family and making arrangements for the funeral to be answering the wild accusations of the conspiracy theorists right now. Maybe give them a couple more days before diving in and accusing their team of reckless endangerment and idiocy.

They have some pretty smart guys there and, no doubt they have a good idea of what happened. The whole team is devastated and to imply that there was some known flaw in their safety protocols is a ballsy accusation. If you really want to dig right down to the bottom of this issue, realize that - in addition to the fact that they have the obvious lessons from the NASA accidents, and in addition to the fact that they have a significant financial incentive NOT to screw up - this team is a very tight group that would NEVER place safety anywhere other than at the top of the list.

If you want something to do with the idle time that you seem to have on your hands, maybe you could consider donating to Mike's family fund.

To quote from the funding page:

"Michael (Mike) Alsbury, Test Pilot and Project Engineer for Scaled Composites, passed away on October 31, 2014 due to an anomaly during flight test. Mike was a husband, a father of two small children (ages 10 and 7), amazing friend and co-worker. Mike had worked with Scaled for over 15 years. This is a tragic loss that will leave a void in Mike’s family, the Scaled family, and the surrounding community for years to come. We would like to do anything we can to support Michelle and his two children."

Mike Alsbury Memorial Fund by Scaled Family - GoFundMe

Thanks in advance for helping them out.

8

?? Did he not have life insurance?? As a test pilot?

Is VG not going to take good care of him and his family after 15 years of service?

Not "ballsy accusations" but curiosity. Where did anybody say "reckless endangerment?" From extensive NASA accounts, insider accounts, and consensus picture of the two disasters I mentioned I would argue that what you say is not true in those scenarios.

This is a well-funded project by a conglomerate, and soliciting small donations for $50k is odd. Look at the hate that a pilot got on these boards trying to get some funds for his education in a similar fashion.

He was no doubt a pioneer and a talented pilot, fair winds to him. God's peace to his family. Personally, I find calling it an anomaly fairly insulting though.

Scaled has done quite a bit over the years leading to some great breakthroughs. Condolences to the entire team, families, and freinds.

Scaled Overview on Vimeo

My they go forward.

Yes, I recognize you now, Cardio.

Your posts are not worth responding to.

Apologies to everyone else who knows not to do this and saw me trying to speak common sense to flame bait. I'll remember next time.

8

You seem to be totally clueless.

I made a very sizable donation... Should I take it back? Your posts show a completely classless nature, and naiveté that is astounding. Not worth reading, really.

Care to expound about that?

That a large company, headed by a flamboyant billionaire, is soliciting $$$ from the common man instead of making sure he is well taken care of?

That this is manifestation of a further push to "privatize" everything, except when things go wrong, and then it's "oh let's all chip in" from the public and hard-up employees of the company? Private profit, public risk, got it.

This was a project for rich guys like me to take $250,000 joyrides into space, not a scientific mission. Branson and VG should take good care of this pilot and his family. He should have had, as part of the job, a very fine insurance and be well taken care of, not setting up begging webpages. Test pilots risk their lives every day and ABSOLUTELY MUST be treated well.

If one of my employees dies, they are well taken care of. If one of my employees gets a disease on the job (as part of the job), they are well taken care of.

If you want to give your few dollars to assuage your guilt and feel good about yourself, go ahead.

"Safety first" - if you believe that... well... sorry for the reality, buddy. That is for public relations. We'll await the full report on what happened, then judge for yourself if it was "safety first." :rolleyes: I have likely been in corporate america for a more than most of you doe-eyed idealists.


So, does anybody have any insight as to what went wrong? I can not wait to read the technical factors, and as I reflected above, it does seem as though there were warnings to the catastrophe.

Indeed, and hope they go forward beyond the prototyping phase and really push the limits of flight. Perhaps one day later in life I do aspire to be a part of these kind of endeavors.

Condolences to the lost pilot, hope his family is treated well, and hope he was not lost for reasons that I suspect.

I am sure that those of you who actually read and understand my posts will see that I am an advocate of pilots and aviation, with both public, civic AND private/corporate responsibility. There is actually not much controversial about that to reasonable folks. :cool:

Media reporting that Feathering system was activated prematurely, possibly by a pilot.

I would have suspected the hybrid motor before the Fx system...Fx system should be pretty easy to control, and the consequences of control failure obviously catastrophic.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/03/us/spa...html?hpt=hp_t3

Cardio, I don't think anyone will disagree with your premise that an operation of this magnitude, with this much risk, on the cutting edge of something this revolutionary should be taking care of the people hanging it out there. I seriously doubt that RB won't personally see to it that his family is well cared for. I also agree that the perception of asking for donations can rub people the wrong way, but they may also just be putting in place an avenue for those that wish to donate to do so with no other motive or attempt to shed responsibility.

That said, it's obvious that 8 may have some personal involvement with this accident and thus some emotion. Your comments, this soon after an accident like this (or any accident) violate a basic tenant of professional pilot decorum. As near as I can tell from your posts, you're an aviation hobbyist in the company of guys that live and breath this stuff, some for decades. It's a small community and odds are good guys on this board know those involved. To make accusations while the wreckage is still smoking is like pouring salt in the wound, especially for guys here that may have emotional involvement. I'm not saying it can't be discussed (in the pursuit of safety it must be once the facts are out), but try and use a little more tact in the timing. When the facts come to light, and those involved have come down from the emotional trauma of an event like this, only then should discussions like this be broached... and not before those involved have opened that door.

Well said, and I fully understand and agree. Obviously out-group bias coupled with urge to lash out and blame, protect the in-group, perceived "attacks" etc etc.

If you recall, in the previous discussion (not sure you were part) I didn't mind the online begging affair. I think it is fully within people's rights to set up webpages like that, and i donated quite generously (alas, before "DC-8driver" was rude and extremely disrespectful).

I just don't think having a little fundraiser right afterward is what we should rely on, and more to erase latent guilt. Like people who volunteer for a day at a soup kitchen on a holiday and mug it up for the camera. Yeah, great you do that. It is. But what happens the other 364 days?

Regarding perceived attacks, there is an urge for doctors to do the same thing "ooh how dare you criticize us, you're not a doctor so be quiet." There is a fine line between critical inquiry, which needs to be done, and deference. Nuance will be lost on some.

"Aviation hobbyist" or not, we all share the same airspace. I doubt most of you guys are test pilots with their risk of mishap. I'd wager I fly more monthly hours currently than a lot of pros. Statistically my risk of death is much higher than yours. If I ever ultimately buy the farm, lady cardiomd won't ask for any donations because I am responsible and have set up for them to be very well taken care of.

Obviously also I don't have a lot of the same pressures that a pro would have, but getting influencers outside of your industry to advocate for aviation professionals would be a great thing for the industry. Individuals and responses like DC8DRIVER (do any carriers still fly DC8?) will just make me throw up my hands and say "f- it." Enjoy your regional pay and follow that magenta line. Set up more begging accounts and worship that corporation that screws you over.

Hope readers understand these points of view, and safe flying.

You should probably ease your throttles back on this one Cardio.

You stepped in it in this one by going down this route way earlier than you should have. Getting all defensive and making further postings throwing back wild punches is not doing you any good in this situation.
Your feelings are hurt but they will heal.

I was mostly angered after I donated $$$ THEN I saw their insulting posts! :mad:

I didn't throw the first punch, before "dc8" and his classy friend "cheaptrick" got exceedingly uncivil. I doubt they would be like that to my face. Again I donated to the memorial / emergency cash fund in response to that *********'s plea. It started as $50,000, then raised target to $75,000, and now stands at $131,000. I'm not going to take my donation back, but you decide if this how things should be done, or not.

In my field if you become exceedingly defensive instead of honest and open after a tragedy, well yes, that is suspicious. Getting all defensive and throwing back wild punches is not doing their team any good in this situation.

Sorry if I hurt their team's feelings asking obvious questions. Your faith in RB "I never met the guy" is much higher than mine.

Grumble, in a relatively short time, I have almost as many hours as the test pilot/engineer that was killed. I hang out here because other pilot BBS have advanced topics such as "HOW DO I REQUEST FLIGHT FOLLOWING" or "I CANT SEEM TO GET LANDING DOWN". :rolleyes:

Their feelings are hurt but they will heal, and we will get the full NTSB report, and aviation will hopefully be stronger as a result. RIP.

But does your time include all the ratings and experience that the pilot killed had?

Forgive me if I can't really take it serious if your GA time in that pretty plane in your avatar pic some how equated to the experience of the guy that perished.

I've held off saying this out of respect for the deceased, but no one has really said what kind of experience Michael Alsbury had.

According to published data, he was hired at Scaled Composites in 2001, had 1800 hours, of which 1600 were with Scaled Composites.

This means he was 26 years old and had 200 hours when hired as an engineer.

It means he gained 1600 hours over 13 years, or about 110 hours a year, on average.

If hired at that age, he did not go to a military Test Pilot School.

The national Test Pilot school is at Mojave; Scaled's home base, so it is feasible he went there. But did Scaled pay $300,000 to send him there? Further, I believe the most sophisticated aircraft in their curriculum is the T-33, the L-39, and possible a Drakken.

A friend of mine worked at Orbital Sciences on the Antares and had some contacts in the industry. He said he knew at least one of the five pilots at Scaled was a military test pilot with a high-performance background. (David MacKay).

But so far, that is the only one I can verify.

My point: Michael's death is a tragedy, but right now there is a lot we don't know about he and Peter Siebold's backgrounds and training.

Agree with/don't dispute ANY of that. But even so, I'm hard pressed to compare CardioMD's GA experience in ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM to the deceased.

Cardio,

I see no reason for you to be angry for donating money because of statements made to you by dc8, etc. Your sole purpose, I presume, was to make a donation on behalf of the deceased pilot, not to please dc8 or anyone else. That was a great gesture.

Folks in this AP forum can be quick to start analyzing situations, posting thoughts, and giving opinions, usually well before the smoke is cleared, to be sure. This is to be expected when situations are reviewed and shared by fellow pro pilots. That being said, citing preliminary reports (that were only hours old) from an article(s) in the press and furthering accusations about this incident that early in time just comes off as rather callous. Time and the NTSB investigation (I trust) will sort it all out and the chips will certainly fall where appropriate.

Folks make rude and insulting comments in the AP forum all the time. I try to never take it personal. I just view it as coming with the territory because pro pilots have strong opinions, biases, and tend to be extra critical of fellow pro and non-pro pilots (as any profession would). The same as a group of Dr’s would be in your profession, right?

It is futile to try compare your type flight time hours as a rebuttal in this situation and tends to make you sound arrogant, IMHO. Kind of chew on that one a bit and see if you can tell what I mean.

For the record, I have all the respect in the world for anyone that is a medical Dr.

I for one do not mind the presence of the good DR. or his weighing in on the forums, this is an OPEN forum and his questions had some merit, I was a private pilot for six years before I went all in, the condescension I experienced when talking to some " pro's" rankles me still, welcome aboard Doc, and God rest and speed Michael Alsbury.

Nowhere did I ever say it equated, and I absolutely do not claim that it does. I was more responding to the cheeky dismissal as a "hobbyist" - I am lucky to fly quite a bit by any standard, and was saying that more to distinguish myself from the 30 hour per year MDs of whom I know plenty, and as many of you recall I have an engineering background.

Simultaneously I was pointing out that the accident pilot didn't exactly "live and breathe" in the cockpit, although he was obviously involved as an engineer in the aviation field, his flight hours reported are relatively low.

I noted the same thing, again I hope that those that would have a personal or emotional reaction don't see it as direct accusations or anything. Also to be fair this private endeavor seems to be somewhere between rocketry and aviation, so it is not inconceivable to train somebody from the start in this unique craft. Probably will be hearing more about this aspect in the future.

Thanks I really appreciate it. I also run into that a bit, fortunately it is only from a vocal minority. Sorry for responding in kind, which is not right.

Totally agree RIP and may we learn from his sacrifice.

I like you too Cardio, If some of these comments upset people, they should never go out on an accident investigation. It gets a little raunchy sometimes, though that is largely a method of detachment and a coping mechanism during the process. Everyone has their methods of coping with something like this, though everyone cares just the same.

If the guy was hired as a test engineer how much time would you expect him to log?

Rapidly judging the qualifications of the pilots in this incident this soon seems way out of place.

I think all should set egos and self arrogance aside for a bit until more facts are developed and released from the pending investigation.

Not a sermon, just a thought. ;)

Spaceship pilot unaware co-pilot unlocked brake

Some more details presented in the article.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal:

Problems Plagued Virgin Galactic Rocket Ship Long Before Crash - WSJ

This case reminded me of the account X-15 pilot Bob Rushworth gave about a somewhat similar emergency on one of his missions. Aerodynamic heating stretched the fuselage, causing it to pull an uplock release cable, and the landing gear came out at a high Mach number. Fortunately, the air was thin at that altitude and the vehicle wasn't damaged, but the additional drag caused an awesome rate of descent. He was able to reach an alternate lakebed for a safe landing. :cool:

Article behind the "WSJ" Paywall. I don't think I want to give Murdoch any more money today.

Are you meaning something offensive with the article or the pay to read it? I just typed the same title in my search window, and easily found another source to read same article for free...

First of all, I hope there are not mass cancellations, Etc. This issue can be fixed fairly easily. This craft didn't crash just because somebody pulled a lever, the issues are deeper. For instance do they have a Key Man? A Key man or woman... is absolutely the most crucial component of a project like this. It doesn't seem they have one, or at least are not listening to or following their advice/input. A good Key Man for an operation like this costs anywhere from 100 > 200K per year. The employees, engineers and especially the deceased pilot and his family did not deserve this. I am not blaming anyone in particular, at least not yet; though a little insight, understanding and Sir Richards pocket money could have likely prevented this. Very sad situation...

I don't believe David MacKay was ever a Scaled pilot. He works for Virgin, IIRC. And I know at least three of the other pilots that fly it have TPS backgrounds. Two of them fly for Virgin, the third I'm not sure which company employs him.
In any case, they are highly qualified.

The big problems with this outfit are not with the pilots. It is upper management, including Sir Richard. I honestly hope they finally learn from this and make the necessary changes and press on.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/proble...163331364.html

Same article at Yahoo Finance.