Whats the current attrition rate? I cant imagine there are a lot of FOs jumping ship with the upgrade time right at 1000 hours

just doing the math

If anyone is to come on as a new hire HVA, seems rather unattractive to have to sit and wait wile 1,000 +/- FOs upgrade on top of you - even if every base got a reasonably similar number of upgrades (which they wont) thats still 300 pilots upgrading on top of any HVA direct entry captain hired today.

even with an AA Flow number. and $45,000 bonus, that seems like a crap deal

you'd sit ready for 6 months, RAP for probably another 6-12 months. even if you did manage to bid to the base you wanted, you would be under the constant threat of being displaced back to where-the-hell-ever, eventually you'd hold a line... but it would be the most bottom of the barrel line for pretty much the next half of your time at Envoy

one has to look past the trees if they are going to see the forest.

I imagine there arent a lot of prior 121 guys out there who want four stripes that badly

Outside of the flow, attrition to other airlines is extremely low for now. We’ll see what happens in the coming years. Your understanding of how the HVA deal would play out is correct. With the exception of some recruiting/management types, there isn’t anyone on here that’s going to convince you that it’s a great deal.

Will be interesting to see what impact a 43% pay increase will do at Spirit. IMHO.... there may a fairly large number of guys at the WO’s willing to jump ship if they get a spot at Spirt ...if the new TA is approved. The pay will be on par with AA ...why wait. Spirit likes guys that won’t leave...no 4 year degree, no problem at Spirit...they just want guys that will stay for the long haul. Flying the bus, min 4 days off between trips, great health care, 11% going to 15% company 401k contribution. Anyone in their high 40’s low 50’s should give this a hard look.

I am 100% going to apply if that TA gets approved. I agree with everything you said. I am old enough that being a captain on a 787 making top tier pay at AA is a pipe dream.

+1

Filler

This right here is my biggest deterrent to envoy right now. It seems envoy and psa are polar opposites in this. Seems like most pilots go to envoy because of flow and are banking on it. At psa, SAP seems to be the main factor along with their base choices and they have much more attrition outside of flow as just about everyone wants out to wherever calls first asap.

Minimal outside attrition along with they no longer are hiring into dfw, upgrading against your will to a base you won't want, and awful reserve rules to enjoy along with it are my main reasons for not coming here now.

Don't forget the company's blatant disregard for the contract.