ALPA doesn't do jack for regionals.

That's EXACTLY why I specifically said pilots that didn't vote. Not voting was the same as a NO vote. How many of the 65% of pilots in 2007 that didn't vote still remain? My guess, not that many. And that was my point. Sorry you misunderstood (not surprised).

I disagree. Saying that they don't do jack for the regionals is being very short sighted and naive. Alpa national does a lot for the industry in general and the regionals also benefit from that. NAI is a huge example of something that's done at the national level. And Skywest like many other regionals benefit from that. You all just feel you should get it for free

ALPA does exactly the same for regionals that they do for mainline. Just because they don't have as much leverage, doesn't mean they don't do anything. And once again, a pilot union is a lot more than just a contract. It's like number three in the importance level of a pilot union.

There are a lot of apathetic crew members that just couldn't be bothered to get informed, involved, or lift a finger to vote one way or another.

For what it's worth, at least ALPA representatives would be standing up for us to some degree, even if ALPA's leverage is small. Can you say the same for our student council in SAPA? I think that you also underestimate how ineffective ALPA can be at mainline and LCCs as well. Just look at what mainline/LCC pilots endured/are enduring now in order to secure better work rules and compensation. It isn't a matter of ALPA "not doing jack", rather it is the balance of power between unions and management that makes it look like ALPA is ineffective at the regional level...and management will always have power over unions and employees.

There are for sure, but in 2006 the vast majority on the non-votes were actually intentional no votes.

I would have preferred if the no voters actually cast a ballot, to avoid ambiguity but that's irrelevant today... if it happened today, you'd have to cast a ballot if you wanted to be counted, either way.

If put to a vote today, I would be very surprised to see it voted down.
If passed, the company/management would have no one to blame but themselves.

After this last vote I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see it fail. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.

Which regionals have the highest pay and defined career paths? Do those regionals have unions? Do you think Skywest would match Endeavor TA out of the goodness of their heart? What happens if you are paid incorrectly even after filling a complaint?

Don't confuse the cartwheels management has to do to keep your pilot group happy as good will. They do it for the sole purpose of keeping a union off property because they know it would significantly cost them.

After Endeavor passes their TA just start leaving union drive leaflets inside Mormon HQ and you will get a big raise the following week. Guaranteed.

We don't want your union. We are very happy with our airline just the way it is Capeesh? You liberals think that you can mutate society into a debased pipedream of false delusions.

Whoa there Rand Paul. This isn't a liberal or conservative subject.

But, as an FYI, the middle class and our economy was strongest during the periods of highest unionization. Wages account for the lowest % of GDP and corporate revenue since the end it WW2. Since 2001, the only 1st world countries in North America and Europe that have seen a decline in that ratio are us, Ireland, Greece and Spain. Want to take a guess how those economies are doing?

And, by the way, you're welcome. A sector that has at least a 25% unionization, non-union workers in that industry earns a 7.5% higher wage.

Who's we? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

Uh. Speak for yourself.

I disagree. There is already an ALPA organizational movement in progress. Time will tell whether it blooms, but with QOL slipping and our pay lagging behind, it may gain traction.

I'll humor you this once.


Having a union is an insurance policy to have in place and just one of many costs of doing business in the airline industry. It is for a reason that SkyWest management attempts to keep unions off property--they would be a newfound hindrance and would cost the airline.


The balance of power will always lie in management's hands, so ALPA can only do so much for us. Regional airline management is constrained by what it can offer, so it would seem that most regional unions are ineffective. I can understand the gripe of those of us who hail from previous ALPA-affiliated regionals.


A real, legit union would be far better for us than a company-sponsored group that has been accused by many pilots to censor anti-management sentiment. Mine and others' recent experience with SAPA as it regards the recent TA put a bad taste in my mouth--they weren't fighting for us, they were doing whatever they could to protect management's best interests. My personal view at least.


You as an "investor" don't want us to unionize because it would lower the value of SKYW stock. You are not looking out for the SkyWest pilot group's best interests, though. In fact, I doubt that you are an investor at all. You are most likely just trolling us for entertainment, ha.

Cue Rex Tillerson.

Nope, try again!

1% in today's market proved we have no leverage without a union. Even worse is the company's constant disregard for the policy and no protections when they decide to reinterpret the rules to fit their needs each day.
I've never been big on needing/wanting a union myself but times are changing.

Completely agree.

It’s disappointing when it is in black and white and the company still interprets the rules incorrectly.

Yes there are. SAPA regularly has updates on instances of the company pulling a new stunt and the details of the uphill battle of them trying to fix it. Sometimes they are successful sometimes they are not..even with things that are in clear violation of the policy.
Some are so obvious you would think I am joking. A recent one was forcing pilots to work on their day off. After several months of discussion and meetings with the company it was decided that a day off is....a day off. Imagine that.
That shouldn't have taken so long. The problem is in an instance where crew support forces you to work on a day off you, you call to SAPA and the response would be to fly the flight and submit a complaint about it. Meanwhile you've already missed your child's birthday party or you had to call in emergency (for a day that was already a day off).
It's sad that SAPA doesn't have enough power to even say "No, that's a breach of policy. You don't have to work that day because it's your day off. We will take care of you"
Wait for the best part.. even though it has been agreed that days off are protected, we haven't seen the last of this problem yet. I'm sure it will come up again in a few months or a year and they will have more meetings to redetermine how they want to interpret the rules.

So I guess my point is that I agree with you completely that the fact that the company doesn't want a union should be enough to keep them playing ball and when that happens everyone wins. But what is the next course of action when the company decides not to play nicely anymore? What if the employees have decided that the current system isn't working anymore?

That is exactly the issue. Our policy manual isn't a legally binding document. It is a collection of handshake agreements with the unwritten understanding that if they are not adhered to, the pilot group may have an interest in seeking representation that can provide a legally binding contract (union).
That might be where we are at currently.
Management is who SAPA mediates with on these issues..sometimes unsuccessfully and never quickly. So calling them doesn't help. I've had several friends call their chief about these issues only to hear the same response. "Just fly the trip and file a report."

Also typical at union airlines. Being right about the contract will not keep them from firing you for disobedience/insubordination if you refuse when they tell you to do something. "Fly it and grieve it".

If there are ANY airlines where you can refuse to do something based on your interpretation of the contract and get off the hook I would like to know. I'm talking about a contractual provision allowing you to refuse any assignment which is not in accordance with the contract.

But even having such a provision might be of limited value... you'd have to be pretty darn sure of your contractual knowledge to play that card if the consequence of being wrong is termination.

There are issues everywhere regardless of having a union or not. The question is which one is going to be able to back you up when the company tries to pull something.
Are you telling me that you honestly believe that SAPA has the same degree of protection for you in contract (policy) grievances as ALPA does?

The difference might be, does a SAPA grievance result in restitution of some sort? Is there additional pay or a day off later in the month? Or, do they say, 'yeah, our B. Next time we'll get it right?' Even more importantly, is SAPA decidedly pilot partisan or do they often have management best interest in mind?

My fault, company rules. I should have been more specific.

RemoveB4Flight provided a good write up.

It wouldn't be practical to expect anyone to pursue legal action since the pilot would have to fund it on his or her own as an individual since SAPA is funded by the company they obviously can't do it. The company would essentially have to want to take legal action against itself.
However at ALPA they have the means to do that when there is a big issue. And you do have legal protection in the case of wrongful termination and other situations where you may need it.

As far as knowing the policy manual, when something arises we can refer to our policy manual which every employee has access to. But like I said, when crew support tells you one thing, and yet the policy manual clearly states the opposite, you are still forced to bend over.

How would being union have changed the outcome of the vote? I'm not saying that we don't need one, but the apathy of this pilot group won't change because of representation.

Again, I don't think you quite understand what a union will bring to the table. If there is a violation, the union will tell you to fly it and grieve it. I am actually in favor of a union, but your arguments are not necessarily helping the cause.

A great example would be the recent change to policy regarding call out for and IOE trip. Until last week the required minimum notification was 24 hours. Company just arbitrarily cut it in half with no say from SAPA or the pilot group.

Wouldn't change the outcome of the vote, but it might change the quality of what we are voting on in the first place..which is equally important.
Look at the pay packages the other regionals are offering, then look at our latest.